TestMagic Forums - View Single Post - Rejected in 2009

doriangray2009 · 2009 May 7th, 01:03 AM

Rejected too? Sucks, doesn't it? Not to worry. If you're determined to go the business doctoral route, if you're bright enough, & if you're young enough, there is not much in your way to getting in the next time around.

I've scattered some of my experiences throughout this forum, but I thought it would be useful for future applicants to see what a rejected profile looks like, to take what I've learned from my personal experience with rejection into their own self-assessment, & to share in the advise of my own advisors for improving my chances in the next round.

So here goes. I'll re-post my full academic profile at the end.

===

(1) There exists NO applicant that will get in everywhere s/he applies. What does this mean exactly? For starters, each doctoral program admits its candidates on distinct criteria. You could have the 800 GMAT, research experience since you were 7 years old, & glowing, posthumous letters of recommendation from Carl Jung, Kurt Lewin, & George Washington, but one professor on one admissions committee somewhere in the world will say, "Yeah, he's got a solid application, but I just think Lewin got change psychology all wrong," or something else completely arbitrary. You will be rejected, God knows why.

So take this process with a grain of salt. The biggest grain you can find, preferably. Rejection is inevitable, for reasons beyond your control or understanding. Don't forget: the key is to impress just one adcom out there!

(2) Doctoral admission is based essentially on how well your profile addresses this question about you: Can this person conduct high-level academic research? This point is most useful when deciding who should write your letters (professors, not managers), on what character traits to write about in your statement (diligence, intelligence, curiosity), and on what sort of experience you should be seeking to notch on your profile (skip that internship & work in the lab for pennies all summer with your advisor).

The single greatest thing you can do to improve your profile is to have a paper of original research that you authored. Of course, the irony in this is that you are applying to a program which is designed precisely to teach you how to write original research.

(3) Age matters. Adcoms apply a Laffer curve to admissions with respect to age. The age window of maximum confidence for admissions into PhD programs is roughly 24-29 years old.

> If you are applying right out of your bachelor's degree (21-23), adcoms will suspect your maturity, your commitment, & your experience. This is natural. They will also reject your application on these matters with a light heart, because in their minds, you will simply re-apply in a year or so "if you really want to do this".

> If you are in your 30s, they will suspect your ability to commit to the impoverished life of a grad student, your desire to have a family life, your reasons for the dramatic shift at this point in your life. You won't achieve (associate) tenure until your 40s. In general, adcoms worry you about being "too mature", or too set in your ways. It's more difficult to overcome this discrimination, but it can be done if you, say, return to grad school for an MA, make a few academic connections, & so on.

(4) The GMAT is not that important. The GMAT gives adcoms their only "objective" measure of your intelligence. For this reason it has a degree of usefulness. In the elite programs however, I have been led to believe that the GMAT is a non-factor after the initial cutoff of applicants. If you make 700 or better, stop worrying about it. If you make better than 650, you are still probably fine. Your academic record - grades + courses taken - is far more important than the single GMAT score. Want to impress them with your quantitative ability? Get an A in calculus, or some other tougher math course. Increasing your GMAT-Quant score by a few points does not pay dividends.

(5) Continuing that last note, quantitative skills are absolutely essential in every business discipline. Even in the worlds of consumer psychology, organizational behavior, & strategic management, math is crucial. Your record must show - beyond the simple GMAT - that math is no obstacle for you. More mathematical research streams - marketing modeling, financial economics, operations management - obviously require a love of these skills, but this point is not really intended for applicants in those subjects.

===

I hold these opinions with confidence, from my personal experience, from my fellow applicants' experiences, & from the advice of my mentors & advisors. Now that admissions season is over, I'm not going to be very active here, but all the same I welcome differing views or supporting stories or additional content to the points I've made here.

As a fully-rejected PhD applicant for consumer behavior in marketing, I was consistently given two reasons why my application was not successful: my age (then 22) & my research experience (heavy in the preceding year, non-existent before then). If I do the right things... get older & spend the next few years involved in research... there would not seem to be anything preventing my successful admission.

So with that ultimatum, I am returning to school for a BA in a field more related to my research interests (psychology), & after two years I will plan to enter into an MA program, also in psychology. Yes, that's four more years of non-PhD schooling. Good thing I'm sure about this doctorate thing, otherwise this might be seen as a waste of time.

Good luck to you all, I hope this massive letter is helpful for someone out there.

& of course, my full profile (copied from a previous thread):

Age: 22 (now 23)
Program: Marketing - Behavioral
GRE: 770Q / 590V / 4.5W (not submitted to programs)
GMAT: 730 - 48Q, 41V, 6.0W
Undergrad GPA: 3.61 - BS in business (marketing / intl bus mgmt). Public university, top 10 school, top 5 program, graduated with departmental honors.
Graduate GPA: No graduate school.
Research Exp: (1) thesis in marketing strategy (unpublished, but on track), (2) research assistant on 'A-' journal article in marketing strategy (paid), (3) research assistant on dissertation work in marketing strategy (paid).
Current Work: No relevant work experience.
Letters of Rec: Three primary, one secondary. (1) Thesis advisor, marketing strategy professor (tenured), (2) consumer psych teacher, marketing behavior professor (tenured), (3) personal mentor, marketing behavior professor (tenured).

2009 May 7th, 01:03 AM	#1 (permalink)
doriangray2009 Going All In! Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 47	Rejected in 2009 - Last Thoughts Rejected too? Sucks, doesn't it? Not to worry. If you're determined to go the business doctoral route, if you're bright enough, & if you're young enough, there is not much in your way to getting in the next time around. I've scattered some of my experiences throughout this forum, but I thought it would be useful for future applicants to see what a rejected profile looks like, to take what I've learned from my personal experience with rejection into their own self-assessment, & to share in the advise of my own advisors for improving my chances in the next round. So here goes. I'll re-post my full academic profile at the end. === (1) There exists NO applicant that will get in everywhere s/he applies. What does this mean exactly? For starters, each doctoral program admits its candidates on distinct criteria. You could have the 800 GMAT, research experience since you were 7 years old, & glowing, posthumous letters of recommendation from Carl Jung, Kurt Lewin, & George Washington, but one professor on one admissions committee somewhere in the world will say, "Yeah, he's got a solid application, but I just think Lewin got change psychology all wrong," or something else completely arbitrary. You will be rejected, God knows why. So take this process with a grain of salt. The biggest grain you can find, preferably. Rejection is inevitable, for reasons beyond your control or understanding. Don't forget: the key is to impress just one adcom out there! (2) Doctoral admission is based essentially on how well your profile addresses this question about you: Can this person conduct high-level academic research? This point is most useful when deciding who should write your letters (professors, not managers), on what character traits to write about in your statement (diligence, intelligence, curiosity), and on what sort of experience you should be seeking to notch on your profile (skip that internship & work in the lab for pennies all summer with your advisor). The single greatest thing you can do to improve your profile is to have a paper of original research that you authored. Of course, the irony in this is that you are applying to a program which is designed precisely to teach you how to write original research. (3) Age matters. Adcoms apply a Laffer curve to admissions with respect to age. The age window of maximum confidence for admissions into PhD programs is roughly 24-29 years old. > If you are applying right out of your bachelor's degree (21-23), adcoms will suspect your maturity, your commitment, & your experience. This is natural. They will also reject your application on these matters with a light heart, because in their minds, you will simply re-apply in a year or so "if you really want to do this". > If you are in your 30s, they will suspect your ability to commit to the impoverished life of a grad student, your desire to have a family life, your reasons for the dramatic shift at this point in your life. You won't achieve (associate) tenure until your 40s. In general, adcoms worry you about being "too mature", or too set in your ways. It's more difficult to overcome this discrimination, but it can be done if you, say, return to grad school for an MA, make a few academic connections, & so on. (4) *The GMAT is not* that important. The GMAT gives adcoms their only "objective" measure of your intelligence. For this reason it has a degree of usefulness. In the elite programs however, I have been led to believe that the GMAT is a non-factor after the initial cutoff of applicants. If you make 700 or better, stop worrying about it. If you make better than 650, you are still probably fine. Your academic record - grades + courses taken - is far more important than the single GMAT score. Want to impress them with your quantitative ability? Get an A in calculus, or some other tougher math course. Increasing your GMAT-Quant score by a few points does not pay dividends. (5) Continuing that last note, quantitative skills are absolutely essential in every business discipline. Even in the worlds of consumer psychology, organizational behavior, & strategic management, math is crucial. Your record must show - beyond the simple GMAT - that math is no obstacle for you. More mathematical research streams - marketing modeling, financial economics, operations management - obviously require a love of these skills, but this point is not really intended for applicants in those subjects. === I hold these opinions with confidence, from my personal experience, from my fellow applicants' experiences, & from the advice of my mentors & advisors. Now that admissions season is over, I'm not going to be very active here, but all the same I welcome differing views or supporting stories or additional content to the points I've made here. As a fully-rejected PhD applicant for consumer behavior in marketing, I was consistently given two reasons why my application was not successful: my age (then 22) & my research experience (heavy in the preceding year, non-existent before then). If I do the right things... get older & spend the next few years involved in research... there would not seem to be anything preventing my successful admission. So with that ultimatum, I am returning to school for a BA in a field more related to my research interests (psychology), & after two years I will plan to enter into an MA program, also in psychology. Yes, that's four more years of non-PhD schooling. Good thing I'm sure about this doctorate thing, otherwise this might be seen as a waste of time. Good luck to you all, I hope this massive letter is helpful for someone out there. & of course, my full profile (copied from a previous thread): Age: 22 (now 23) Program: Marketing - Behavioral GRE: 770Q / 590V / 4.5W (not submitted to programs) GMAT: 730 - 48Q, 41V, 6.0W Undergrad GPA: 3.61 - BS in business (marketing / intl bus mgmt). Public university, top 10 school, top 5 program, graduated with departmental honors. Graduate GPA: No graduate school. Research Exp: (1) thesis in marketing strategy (unpublished, but on track), (2) research assistant on 'A-' journal article in marketing strategy (paid), (3) research assistant on dissertation work in marketing strategy (paid). Current Work: No relevant work experience. Letters of Rec:** Three primary, one secondary. (1) Thesis advisor, marketing strategy professor (tenured), (2) consumer psych teacher, marketing behavior professor (tenured), (3) personal mentor, marketing behavior professor (tenured).