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pgralf
09-17-2002, 05:05 PM
I have to say that I am shocked at the number of people who replied to Erin's question by saying that they would cheat on the test. I will think of you when I am sitting in a required ethics class. (I view an ethics class much like I view shopping in Beverly Hills - if you have to ask how much something costs, you cannot afford it. If you need to take an ethics course, you just don't get it.) I want to go back to school to learn, to gain valuable skills, and to enhance my skills and career. Cheating on the admission test is not even an option. And we have all seen the practice question about how some dishonest people will claim to be honest. Have we learned nothing over the past few months??? Is anyone willing to admit being in the 40% that would cheat? I would like to hear your reasoning.

Erin
09-27-2002, 05:51 PM
Yes, cheating is kind of a sad thing. Although I would never cheat on any of these exams, or even in college, I do know people who would and do.

Their rationale is usually something along the lines of "well, I'm not a native speaker of English, and classes are harder for me, so it's okay for me to cheat," or "the grade I get in this class has no reflection on my future ability as a business person," "well, this class is not in my major, so I don't want to waste my time studying for it, but I need a high grade," or "I don't believe in the system of grading, but since I have to abide by the rules, I want to get the highest grades possible," or finally, "in the business world, your goal is to do the best you can do. Similarly, in college, your goal is to get the highest grade possible and if by "cheating" (these people rarely call it that), I can get a higher grade, then I will."

I have lots of friends, or friends of friends, who do this kind of thing. I don't want to mention the cultures, but it seems in some cultures, it's quite common, even expected to "share" resources. It's so common that it's not even anything to deny. For example, many of my friends and students would, at the beginning of their new classes, find friends or acquaintances who'd taken those classes previously and get all the copies of the tests, quizzes, and papers the teacher had given before. Hence, there was a sort of circulating set of materials for each class.

I complained endlessly about this practice to my closer friends who did this, since the practice was so foreign to me. In my university, for example, we were routinely given papers or tests to do and the professors often allowed us to leave the classroom to finish the assignment. Our directions were often as simple as "come back in four hours, don't go to the library, don't get help from anybody." And, believe it or not, none of my friends ever cheated. The normally would go home or to the library to finish the papers, but only because it was more comfortable there, but not to cheat.

I also lived in Charlottesville, Virginia (home to the University of Virginia) for a while also. U Va has a very strong honor code--if anybody cheats or even knows of anybody who cheats, she will be permanently kicked out of the university. The honor code is so effective (there are many abuses, though--no system, place, culture, or society will ever be perfect, as long as there are humans there) that no businesses in Charlottesville even require ID when you use a check.

Anyway, I never even considered cheating when I was in college. I went to college to learn, and I chose a subject I really loved, literature. And all the other subjects I studied, I also wanted to learn as much as I could.

Just my two cents. :)

Interesting topic. Anybody else have any comments? BTW, I might move this topic to the general chat area, so that we can get more responses.

bcn
02-02-2003, 04:39 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Erin Billy



I have lots of friends, or friends of friends, who do this kind of thing. I don't want to mention the cultures, but it seems in some cultures, it's quite common, even expected to "share" resources. It's so common that it's not even anything to deny.

---------------------------------------------------------

YES. I come from one of those 'cultures' in which cheating in exams and sharing resources is not like selling your younger sister to the mafia.
I wanted to answer to Erin because even though he makes clear his dislike
for the practice, he is calm and very objective when comenting. Maybe I can help you a bit to understand further.
I write based on my experience to study in Spain and at a very famous American top university.
All I express are my humble opinions, I don't pretend to be exhaustive or absolutely right in them.

REASONS FOR EUROPEANS (I could see that even Germans are closer in this aspect to Italians or Spaniards than Americans)

1- In many countries you are not usually graded on a curve (top 20% A, next 20% B and so on) therefore your better grades don't harm that much your classmates. It does a bit beacuse teachers will tend to score lower if the average rises.
2- Not all Europeans (not even all Italians and Spaniards ;-)) cheat on exams. But the approach to grades is not as serious as it is in the US (if you note down your GPA in your resume here you'll be considered either arrogant or stupid. Maybe both). The thing is that since Americans don't usually cheat in exams, it seems way too easy for us to do it while in an American Class. Just as under 21 Americans drink alcohol till they pass over while in Spain. Because you can do it. Pretty stupid, I know, but not less true.
3- "It is not your business". If something shocked the International community while at the American University, was that some girl would tell the professor a guy was cheating in an exam. Being the guy an Italian, we thought it was phisically risky to do so... ;-) Actually for us it is like being a very bad classmate to tell the professor. I personally disagree with this extreme practice of badly understood sense of loyalty to a group, but it does exist. and it has its positive side.

I would agree that all the poor excuses Erin mentioned are commonly used, but I just wanted to go a little deeper in the cultural differences behind.

Sure the world would be a better place if everyone would act with complete honesty. I should say maybe because then the genetically superior would have an even more clear advantage and I'm not sure that the world portrayed in Gataca is the place I want to live in.

To pgralf: How fair is that you must take an aptitude test in a foreign language? You can say that we foreigners shouldn't be allowed to apply to your Universities but I hope that is not your answer.

The writer of this post has cheated in exams during his studies. I've been all kinds of a student: mediocre, terrible (failing 8 out of 10) and top (1st out of a class of 350). I have cheated mainly while a terrible student. My grades were negatively affected by other people cheating. Still I got a top GPA and can dream of getting into the best B-Schools in the world. Would I ever say my classmate is cheating. NO. Would I ever crush a mate when presenting a work to the class as I have only seen in America? NEVER. I don't need an Ethics course because I have very strong and clear personal values and no class can change them. I would extend pgralf example to "if you need teamplay exercices, you'd better go and work from home" And no matter how much can I afford, I'll still ask the price so I know if it is worth it and fairly priced.

watchdog
06-27-2003, 06:17 PM
Cheating, Ethics, Laws !

This is all theoritical stuff for new grads, taught at B Schools.

Look at Reality ! Enron, Worldcom, Imclone, Martha Stewart, The Wall Street Settlemt with SEC, NYSE (use of floor specialist's ONLY, in this age of electronic trading !), The list goes on.........

Some of the best and the brightest, of the world, worked for or managed these companies.

Let all theory rest peacefully in the voluminous text books.

BeMaNiXbOi
06-29-2003, 02:41 PM
Why would you cheat? you're only hurting yourself more. The score you get won't be the score you deserve. Here's a quote from my awesome math teacher. "A hard C is better than a soft A" Quote by Ms. Engle.

Erin
06-29-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by BeMaNiXbOi

Why would you cheat? you're only hurting yourself more. The score you get won't be the score you deserve. Here's a quote from my awesome math teacher. "A hard C is better than a soft A" Quote by Ms. Engle.
Glad to hear you feel that way, Alan! :)

BeMaNiXbOi
06-29-2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Erin Billy

Glad to hear you feel that way, Alan! :)

well, I think it's true, I think you would feel better if you actually put some hard work and effort and deserve what you get. Thanks btw

thaiva
07-10-2003, 06:30 PM
You bascially said it all there a hard c is better then a soft A it is true even if you get a c it will make you feel at least glad that you got it because if you got it by cheating then you are going to have big troubles[B)] later in life in tests and exams. It is just best not to cheat and get the hard marks then to cheat and get the top marks. I could not imagine anybody who would even dare to cheat or atempt something like that. :o


Tim [|)]