Please Read

[archuleta7]

I have to say this, and this will be my last time posting here, but I needed to express my thoughts on some of the unwelcoming, irrational, and condescending behavior I received in the thread I started.

I admit that this was probably not the best place to post what I posted, but I explained numerous times throughout the thread my intention and how what I did was not cheating. Out of a test of 200 questions, I asked SIX questions. And I put down what I believed the answer was and my logic for it, asking others to correct my logic. How was this cheating?

I'm a member of other message boards, and understand that there is always some hesitation with new posters, but you guys really took it to another level and I personally felt attacked and I felt that a lot of you guys that responded to my thread jumped to conclusions and assumed I was this cheating, unworthy kid who wanted to BS his way out of a test. That wasn't the case at all, and I personally feel really hurt that I received that reaction.

Signing up for these boards, I read the rules, and one of the rules said "be friendly", and did I get that? No. I would, however, like to thank AsianEconomist for giving me advice and for understanding my intentions and for not automatically assuming I was some idiot. For the rest of you, I really think you shouldn't have your heads up so high yet. I commend you guys for your goals in life with your high degrees, but I think, in life it's important to remember that not everyone has the same brilliance and intelligence as you, and you shouldn't treat others who don't radiate the same intelligence with disgust and accusations but with warmth and respect.

[asquare]

I'm going to move this to the feedback forum. You're welcome to discuss the issue, but that is the appropriate place to do so.

[asquare]

Also, I'm posting a link to this article because it is timely. It reflects the perceived difference between study groups and using the internet to solve homework or exam questions. It's not a cut-and-dry issue, but I share the sense that there is something different about working with classmates and soliciting answers online. Others may disagree, though

[econorama]

I admit that this was probably not the best place to post what I posted, but I explained numerous times throughout the thread my intention and how what I did was not cheating. Out of a test of 200 questions, I asked SIX questions. And I put down what I believed the answer was and my logic for it, asking others to correct my logic. How was this cheating?

I wasn't one of the people who responded to your original post, but I can tell you why I thought it was cheating.

Your original post said that "any help would be absolutely fantastic" and when one member just posted with a list of answers to some of the questions you seemed to consider that to be sufficient, responding with "Thank you, I really appreciate it."

You state that you put down what you believed the answers were and why you thought they were right, but 90 minutes later and only because someone said you should. As far as I can tell, if we had just responded by answering all of your questions without any explanations, you would've thought that was great. You say you want to understand the material, but you never asked Antonio to explain WHY the answers he posted were correct. Which makes me think that you don't really care, you're just saying you do now so that you seem like an innocent victim.

But you're not. You're a cheater. Answering 97% of the questions on your own doesn't justify what you tried to do with the other 3%.

[archuleta7]

Originally Posted by econorama

I wasn't one of the people who responded to your original post, but I can tell you why I thought it was cheating.

Your original post said that "any help would be absolutely fantastic" and when one member just posted with a list of answers to some of the questions you seemed to consider that to be sufficient, responding with "Thank you, I really appreciate it."

You state that you put down what you believed the answers were and why you thought they were right, but 90 minutes later and only because someone said you should. As far as I can tell, if we had just responded by answering all of your questions without any explanations, you would've thought that was great. You say you want to understand the material, but you never asked Antonio to explain WHY the answers he posted were correct. Which makes me think that you don't really care, you're just saying you do now so that you seem like an innocent victim.

But you're not. You're a cheater. Answering 97% of the questions on your own doesn't justify what you tried to do with the other 3%.

I do understand what you mean about how it may have come off as cheating since I just said "thank you, I really appreciate it" instead of asking for a reason. I admit I probably should have explained my reasonings in my first post, but my initial goal intent was to see what someone else's answer was, compare it with what I had as my own answer, and if it was off, THEN ask why it was wrong.

But with that said, you cannot ASSUME that I wasn't going to ask you for an explanation afterwards. It just so happens that the answers that were given to me by Antonio matched the answers I already had, so why would I ask him for his reasoning when it matches with mine?

In my post where I explained my reasoning, a fellow poster was nice enough to point out my error in thinking in the few questions I missed, and even told me that the answer and reasoning to a majority of the questions I asked was correct. So, I'd like to thank this person for helping me out and for explaining to me how some of my thinking was right on and how some of my thinking was erroneous.

So I definitely don't appreciate you saying

You're a cheater

, because that's harsh and you don't know who I am. You can't assume that I was a cheater and you can't just say that about a person. I think you came off cold in your post, but I don't know you and who you are well enough to say "you're a jerk".

[snappythecrab]

Out of a test of 200 questions, I asked SIX questions. And I put down what I believed the answer was and my logic for it, asking others to correct my logic. How was this cheating?

First off, there is no way of us knowing exactly how many questions there are on your exam. For all we know, it may only be six. Your word, especially since you were cheating, is rather ...worthless?

Secondly, you only posted what you thought were the correct answers, or subset of answers, after you were pressed to do so, and after you had already received the answers to half of your questions, and after you had already been admonished by myself and others.

Your ex post rationalization or attempt at justification does not nullify your actions. You posted your exam (in exam format!) and asked for answers. You weren't interested in rationale, terms, definitions, etc. You simply solicited answers and were attempting to represent the work of others as your own. I don't know what college you attend, however, I have a hard time believing any college would not call that cheating.

Overall, the board has proven to be welcoming community to new members, a and is very quick to answer questions. That being said, somebody that registers with the sole purpose of leaching answers to a exam probably won't receive the kindest response. You deserved no warmth, and respect is earned...and I don't respect cheaters.

[Erin]

I've just posted this in the original post:

Well the Econ forum has brought me loads of fun for the last couple of days.

Here are my thoughts on the issues raised:

• We currently do not have a policy about 'cheating' on exams and homework. I've seen other 'homework help' forums that do have strict rules in place; for example, some boards I've seen say quite plainly that the forum exists to help with, but not to do the homework. But again, we don't have any sort of policy in place simply because it hasn't happened enough.
• Cheating is not illegal. This is not to say that it's ethical (nor is it to say that it's unethical); truth be told, I think it's best to refrain from making blanket judgments of people in general, but very specifically on the internet since very little evidence of veracity of the post or of the intentions of the post can ever be presented. We do have policies in place for certain other activities or postings that aren't illegal, but for cheating, we do not.
• Members may express their opinions about the issues, but may not attack the person. At this point, since I don't think we yet need a policy on this situation, and this very well may change in the future if this becomes a bigger problem, I would ask that people do what their conscience allows them to do. But, and this is very important, if you disagree with the ethics of posting questions on this forum to get help and wish to voice your opinion, you may do so without impugning the character of the person. Again--do NOT attack the people; instead, address the issue. For example, you're quite welcome to voice your opinion that you cannot in good conscience provide help, but that you would be willing to help the OP understand some basic concepts. (Please see asianeconomist's post (Help on a Macroeconomics Test) with a reply that I believe is both tactful and reasonable: # (Help on a Macroeconomics Test)16) Please refer to this post for more of my thoughts on this point: Issues, not individuals--no libel or slander, please
• Moderators are allowed to visit and moderate forums for which they are not designated as moderators. Come on, you have to admit--the issues raised in this forum are hardly specific to economics; this sort of post could have appeared anywhere in the forum.
• Moderators are volunteers. They are also very much needed here. They're human. I think the moderators overall do an excellent job and have received private comments to this effect. (Thank you!) Moderating is certainly not an easy job, and it's often a thankless one.

If you have any concerns, please post them in the feedback forum. As long as the discussion there remains civil, I'm welcome to explain things the way I see them.

[Valhalla]

Hi Erin,

Nice to "meet" you once

First of all I am actually a calm person and nobody who's looking for trouble on purpose. That's why I don't want to discuss whether it's illegal or not to post exam questions and ask others to solve them for you (although I consider it as embarrasing at an econ-PHD forum where even adcoms are lurking sometimes... but ok it's not my forum). I also don't want to discuss whether the guy who did that was cheating or not...(which he did and I second snappy again ... do I get a warning for that AGAIN?) Honestly: I don't like it if people betray but I have more important things to worry about these days as you might imagine...

I want to talk to you about something I consider as more annoying. Have a look at the whole thread which caused this turmoil... Actually I think that it was a healthy debate and the OP even understood my point (the thread right before the moderators intervention) before this strange moderator intervened and sold warnings like hotcakes.. Come on ... have a look at the posts... are they worth to be "punished".. ?

I mean the warning I received says: "There have been other instances where moderator's actions in this forum have been questioned. These are causing concern to Erin and it is unfortunate that you have chosen to act in a way that may increase his concern." .... R U KIDDING? Do you want to say that questioning your moderators is something we shouldn't do? Is that the way you want to run your business which is solely based on its reputation and the fact that students enjoy it to be here?

In my opinion snappy, me and the others tried to end this cheap trial to cheat in order to keep the academic standard of your forum at a decent level. I expect that the moderator who gave the warnings to me and snappy revises his decision, starts to behave more respectful towards those guys who really keep this forum running (i.e. the members) and apologizes. We aren't kids anymore and threatening others with: "I'll tell my big brother what you did"-kind-of-behaviour should not be the level of our discussion.

Last point: i understand that good forums need moderators like a soccer game needs referees. Maybe it's the spirit of my avatar but a good referee is not the one who blows the whistle continuously but one who arranges an attractive but still a FAIR game...

I hope I was respectful and made my point as clear as possible. Given that people think about the application process 24/7 these days someone who tries to cheat in order to achieve a better performance relative to others is not that popular these days at the econ-phd forum. Sorry erin if this causes you concerns but if something like this cheating-thing happens again and one of your moderators (NOT asquare! he does a great job most of the time) defends it I will criticise it again... of course it's your forum and you may ban me for that...

thx

[archuleta7]

Originally Posted by Erin

But, and this is very important, if you disagree with the ethics of posting questions on this forum to get help and wish to voice your opinion, you may do so without impugning the character of the person. Again--do NOT attack the people; instead, address the issue.

Thank you, Erin, for that. I already stated that I understood why there was so much backlash, but I do strongly agree with your wish that people shouldn't insult my character or who I am, because you cannot base an opinion on someone after one post. Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I was truly shocked and outraged at the fact that I was attacked in that matter.

For example, you're quite welcome to voice your opinion that you cannot in good conscience provide help, but that you would be willing to help the OP understand some basic concepts. (Please see asianeconomist's post (Help on a Macroeconomics Test) with a reply that I believe is both tactful and reasonable: # (Help on a Macroeconomics Test)16) [/url]

And I would have definitely accepted that
---

So with that said, I strongly consider Snappy the Crab's post to be strongly offensive, and against a majority of the things you had just gone over.

First off, there is no way of us knowing exactly how many questions there are on your exam. For all we know, it may only be six. Your word, especially since you were cheating, is rather ...worthless?

This is hypocritical because you just said "there is no way of us knowing exactly how many questions there were"... so with that said, if there is no way of knowing, why should I be attacked and why should that allow you to say that my attempt was worthless.

It may confuse some people as to why I seem so insulted by this, but it's because I've never been talked down to or treated like I was dumb. And plus, why would a test be 6 questions? You are acting like I didn't even try on my test, and I did. But again, you don't know that for sure, and as a result, cannot say that I didn't try. I graduated summa cum laude from one of the top high schools in the nation, and I have never been talked to like that in my life.

Secondly, you only posted what you thought were the correct answers, or subset of answers, after you were pressed to do so, and after you had already received the answers to half of your questions, and after you had already been admonished by myself and others.

I already said that I was going to match the poster's answers to my own and ask for an explanation for the ones that didn't match. Who are you to tell me what my intentions are? Again, YOU DON'T KNOW ME and you can't accuse me of not doing something when you have no proof.

You weren't interested in rationale, terms, definitions, etc. You simply solicited answers and were attempting to represent the work of others as your own.

Again, you are talking as if you know exactly every thought I am thinking, when, in reality, you do not. I was interested in the explanation and rationale, but you guys didn't give me any time to ask because you started bashing and attacking from the first reply. For the 3rd time, if the answer didn't match to mine, then I would have asked why. You are acting like I had absolutely no knowledge whatsoever, but in my later post, I displayed ALL my reasonings. So that obviously shows that I had previously thought about each of the answers.

You deserved no warmth, and respect is earned...and I don't respect cheaters.

Pretty harsh. I suggest you try being nicer to people. Your username says it all.

There are a lot of opinions I have made about you just based on your posts, but I do not post saying "you're an idiot", "you're this", "you're that", like you did to me, because I do not know you, and I'd appreciate an apology.

[archuleta7]

Originally Posted by Valhalla

Hi Erin,

Nice to "meet" you once

First of all I am actually a calm person and nobody who's looking for trouble on purpose. That's why I don't want to discuss whether it's illegal or not to post exam questions and ask others to solve them for you (although I consider it as embarrasing at an econ-PHD forum where even adcoms are lurking sometimes... but ok it's not my forum). I also don't want to discuss whether the guy who did that was cheating or not...(which he did and I second snappy again ... do I get a warning for that AGAIN?) Honestly: I don't like it if people betray but I have more important things to worry about these days as you might imagine...

I want to talk to you about something I consider as more annoying. Have a look at the whole thread which caused this turmoil... Actually I think that it was a healthy debate and the OP even understood my point (the thread right before the moderators intervention) before this strange moderator intervened and sold warnings like hotcakes.. Come on ... have a look at the posts... are they worth to be "punished".. ?

I mean the warning I received says: "There have been other instances where moderator's actions in this forum have been questioned. These are causing concern to Erin and it is unfortunate that you have chosen to act in a way that may increase his concern." .... R U KIDDING? Do you want to say that questioning your moderators is something we shouldn't do? Is that the way you want to run your business which is solely based on its reputation and the fact that students enjoy it to be here?

In my opinion snappy, me and the others tried to end this cheap trial to cheat in order to keep the academic standard of your forum at a decent level. I expect that the moderator who gave the warnings to me and snappy revises his decision, starts to behave more respectful towards those guys who really keep this forum running (i.e. the members) and apologizes. We aren't kids anymore and threatening others with: "I'll tell my big brother what you did"-kind-of-behaviour should not be the level of our discussion.

Last point: i understand that good forums need moderators like a soccer game needs referees. Maybe it's the spirit of my avatar but a good referee is not the one who blows the whistle continuously but one who arranges an attractive but still a FAIR game...

I hope I was respectful and made my point as clear as possible. Given that people think about the application process 24/7 these days someone who tries to cheat in order to achieve a better performance relative to others is not that popular these days at the econ-phd forum. Sorry erin if this causes you concerns but if something like this cheating-thing happens again and one of your moderators (NOT asquare! he does a great job most of the time) defends it I will criticise it again... of course it's your forum and you may ban me for that...

thx

I totally understand and respect how you feel about what you thought was cheating and how that is very unattractive especially in a community of people of your caliber. Looking back, it was probably the wrong choice to post it in here, but I think the main point I'm trying to push is that at the end of the day, respect is really appreciated, and a post saying "Unfortunately, I don't think this is the right place for you to be asking this" or "What do you think are the right answers, and why?" would have been better than some of the ones I got.