Views on full bank loan for MS ...

[powerslave]

Hey people,

I am a GRE hopeful, my acads are in a pretty bad shape right now, but
m yet to get my 4th sem result and I still have 4 more sems to go to
make up for the loss. (Which happened due to some personal problems at
home) I am expecting to crack the GRE (and I am confident about that).

What I would like to request to the experts is please let me know,
very frankly, and nothing but the brutal truth, my main problem is
funds. I come from a middle-middle-class family, who is going through
a financial crisis. I'm in my 3rd yr of Computer Engg (Mumbai UniV).
My family would not be able to help me out much in funds. Say even a
max of around a lakh would strain them. I have tremendous desire to do
my MS and I can't seem to decide whether I am financially capable of
fulfilling this dream. We do have property worth a couple of lakhs (say 15~20) but dunno how much this will help me.
I post this here so that I can get honest answers about my chances of
doing GRE. If the verdict turns out to be negative, I would then move
on to CAT.

I'm a hard-working guy and I'm ready for any and all kind of
assistantship, internship anything to fund my expenses and fees.

I'm hoping to go there mainly on a full bank loan. Could you please tell me
how much chance i have to get into a top50 (say rank 20-50) univ on my
own loan (say maybe for yr1). Assuming I score somewhere around 1450+
on my GRE and 60% in my BE, what are my chances of making it? My main
concern is funds. How would you rate my chances of repaying a complete loan? My mom also fears that if I don't manage to complete my MS, the loan repayment will be a nightmare, and we'll end up bankrupt. Is it a clauclated risk? Or am I just being unreasonable. I think I can do it.

Please help guys, this is a vital decision for me and I'm spending
sleepless nights over this. If I learn right now, that I wont be able
to fund myself, then I might as well give up on my dream and start
working for CAT instead.

Thank you in advance.

[ProcessControl]

With regard to your question about taking a bank loan, let me tell you my story. I was accepted into the University of Illinois (Urbana-Champaign) for an M.S. degree two years ago. When I got the acceptance letter I was both excited and sad. Excited because I have always wanted to attend the University of Illinois, and sad because the offer came without funding. The tuition+expenses for an international student that year was US$36,000.

After talking to some profs, I discovered why my acceptance came without funding, despite the fact that my academic record was strong:

1) I applied for the M.S. program when I had really wanted to do a Ph.D. The department I was applying to generally did not fund M.S. students in their first semester. 90% of the M.S. students get TAs and RAs in their second semester, contingent upon a good academic record in the first semester (which meant students generally had to fund themselves during the first semester, i.e. fork out US$18,000 for out-of-state tuition). Only in exceptional cases were M.S. students funded in their first semester (I only knew of one guy there who was funded for his M.S., and he was from an IIT).
(Note: Then again, this wasn't exactly my fault -- that department at UIUC did not allow direct Ph.D. applicants unless they did their undergrad degree at UIUC. Peculiar policy.)

2) I applied for a major different from that of my undergrad (I was switching fields). Which meant I couldn't TA most of the courses in that department. Although my academic record was strong, they didn't think I could TA courses I've never taken.

So I wrote to the admissions committee asking for a 1 semester deferment of my admission so that I might have some time to look for alternative sources of funds. They agreed.

Meanwhile, I went back to my home country and got a job, and explored options. I tried applying for private scholarships, but the economy was tight then and very few companies were giving out any. I looked into government scholarships before dismissing them (too little, and too many strings attached).

The final resort was a bank loan. I looked into a education loan from a bank in my country and at first glance, the plans looked very attractive. Education loans were low-interest, and the repayment terms were flexible.

Then there was this U.S. education loan by Citibank USA, which was open to international students provided they could get a U.S. citizen to co-sign. This sounded promising, I thought. I figured I only needed enough money to fund myself for one semester (US$18,000 -- realistically US$13,000 if I lived cheaply, and I can be very frugal).

At this point, I decided to have a talk with a family friend (who is, coincidentally, an alumnus of the UIUC econometrics program, did his B.S. and M.S. there 40 years ago). We worked out how much the bank loan would cost, and what the risks were.

In the end, our conclusion was this: unless I was American (in which case I'd qualify for U.S. federal loans), taking a bank loan from a commercial bank isn't worth it.

1) If I took a loan from a bank in my home country, I'd be a slave to the bank for life if I didn't get a high paying job after I graduated. (and seeing that my final goal was a Ph.D., I wasn't planning to graduate that soon)

2) Ditto with the Citibank loan. Banks are not your benefactor -- and if you have to take a loan in a currency that's worth more than your own, the risk is multiplied.

I was crestfallen.

But in the end, I snapped out of it and decided it is simply not worth paying that kind of money for just one semester of a Master's degree, even if the school is very famous.

I remembered what a professor of mine back at McGill told me: he said I should never have to go to a school that will not fund me, because if a school didn't fund me (no matter what its reputation is), some other school would. He also asked me to consider staying in Canada, where most Master's students are funded.

Canada views M.S. degrees very differently from the U.S. In Canada, it's perfectly acceptable to terminate your studies with an M.S. degree. It's possible to do solid research at the Master's level, and professors and the Canadian government generally fund such research.

In the U.S., the M.S. degree is seen either as a consolation prize for those who failed their qualifiers, or those who just want to get their feet wet in research. (To be fair, I don't think everybody subscribes to this, but I get the impression that the profs from Big 10 schools that I've talked to do).

So I'm now back in grad school, having the time of my life at a school that I like (and surrounded by people who are at the top of their game), doing what I want, and not having to pay a cent for this privilege.

The message here? Unless you're applying for a professional program (where nobody gets funded) or to a humanities program (ditto), don't go to a school where there's no funding.

Taking a loan to fund a U.S. education is extremely risky, and only worth doing if you're American or think you can get a job that pays well enough for you to repay the loan in a finite amount of time. ;-)

No point saddling yourself with debt for a 2-year degree. If you're really desperate for an M.S., try Canada. The system's not too different from the U.S., and we do have some top people here. And if you decide to do a Ph.D. at a U.S. school after that, you'd stand a much better chance of getting in with your Master's than you would with your bachelor's.

As for whether you'll get into a Top 50 university in the U.S., I'm not qualified to judge your credentials... but other people here might have a better idea about where you stand.

[powerslave]

First of all, thank you for the neatly presented and very nicely detailed reply.

I must say I've just got my feet wet in the whole GRE/MS thing and so I hope you understand that I don't know all the aspects of this exam. In the sense, when you say aided, I understand I can have TA/RA, but I'm not too clear whether getting aid means I have to not spend any money (or maybe a small part of my money) or does it mean working on campus? This is a very naive newbie question. I'm sorry for that.

1) As far as I understand, RA/TA is something one does to supplement his expenses, and to some extent the fees. This has to be checked with the professors before applying to any university. Please could you shed some light here ?

2) Aid, would be something similar to the RA/TA or is it something like a scholarship? I understand not all universities provide aid, but won't all students flock the ones who do, so what are the factors when a university selects you for aid?

3) How do my acads affect my chances of getting aid (broadly assuming I score good in GRE)?

4) How much money of my own (my parent's, I've got none) will I finally spending apart from the Exam fees, school application fees, visa, plane ticket etc., if I do get aid ? Will I have to take a smaller loan in case I do get aid?

5) W.r.t point 4, how much aid does a univ normally give to a student?

6) Do good univs offer aid, or only the less known and low rated univs offer aid?

Could I get some answers on these newbie questions..? Thank you for helping out a student in trouble (and confusion)! I have a lot many questions running through my head but I'll just go slowly wih the whole thing. Why I'm so eager to know is coz I dont want to hold on to these dreams and just realise finally that even if I am academically eligible, I may not be financially capable to fulfil my dreams of doin MS. IN case I find out I'm ineligible, I will just start working towards some other course (read CAT).
Thank you once again.

[ProcessControl]

In the sense, when you say aided, I understand I can have TA/RA, but I'm not too clear whether getting aid means I have to not spend any money (or maybe a small part of my money) or does it mean working on campus? This is a very naive newbie question. I'm sorry for that.

There are a few kinds of financial support:
1) TA - Teaching Assistantship, you have to teach/facilitate a course
2) RA - Research Assistantship, you do research for a prof (this is usually rare)
3) Entrance scholarship (if they want to offer an incentive for you to accept their offer)
4) Graduate scholarship/Stipend (this one covers your living expenses)
5) Tuition-waiver (exemption from paying tuition)/

There are others (merit scholarships, external scholarships), but these are the main ones that are offered by universities.

Normally, a school offers you either (1) or (2), not both. If you're an exceptional candidate, they might offer you (3).

Some schools don't distinguish between (4) and (1) & (2). U.S. schools generally give out assistantships which pay enough to cover all expensese.

As for (5), this normally depends on the school. Some schools have what they call Half-TAships and Full TA-ships. A half-TA means you can TA one semester in a year, whereas a full-TA means you can TA two semesters. If you get a half-TA, normally you either get a half-tuition waiver or a full one.

Normally, when you get a TA-ship, the school will automatically give you a full tuition waiver. A half-TA will usually get you a partial tuition waiver. But this is highly department-specific, so you must check with the department you're applying to.

1) As far as I understand, RA/TA is something one does to supplement his expenses, and to some extent the fees. This has to be checked with the professors before applying to any university. Please could you shed some light here ?

You are usually offered a RA/TA either:
1) upon acceptance
2) after acceptance, and after you have emailed some profs asking for free positions (if the school encourages you to do this)
2) after 1 semester of attending the school

It depends on the school, but normally a TA/RA income is enough for you to live on. And as I said, in most U.S. schools, if you're offered a TA/RA, the tuition is usually automatically waived.

2) Aid, would be something similar to the RA/TA or is it something like a scholarship? I understand not all universities provide aid, but won't all students flock the ones who do, so what are the factors when a university selects you for aid?

For the most part, financial aid is a blanket term for all the forms of financial support I've described above. Most international students go to schools that provide financial aid.

As for how school decide which candidates to fund, well... if I knew that, we wouldn't need this forum, would we?

But in general, schools that offer funding to M.S. candidates fund the best candidates, or candidates who fit a certain profile.

3) How do my acads affect my chances of getting aid (broadly assuming I score good in GRE)?

Very important.
Financial aid in many schools are competitive, so you'll only get aid if you're among the best candidates in the pool.
The GREs can sometimes determine if you'll get aid or not. Depends on the school policy.

4) How much money of my own (my parent's, I've got none) will I finally spending apart from the Exam fees, school application fees, visa, plane ticket etc., if I do get aid ? Will I have to take a smaller loan in case I do get aid?

Usually you need just enough to settle in. This varies from place to place, but maybe US$1500 to $2500? I'm not sure.

To give you an idea of the magnitude of the stipends: (these change from year to year, and depends on various factors)

University of Michigan - Math Ph.D. - about US$20,000/yr
University of Illinois - ChE M.S. - about US$22,000/yr
University of Minnesota - ChE Ph.D. (before qualifiers) - about $18,000/yr

5) W.r.t point 4, how much aid does a univ normally give to a student?

Either full, partial or none.
Full = enough to live on
Partial = may need to supplementary income to survive
None = forget it.

6) Do good univs offer aid, or only the less known and low rated univs offer aid?

Depends. This varies from university to university, and department from department.
Many good and bad universities offer financial support.

You'll also find that some departments offer aid while others don't.... in the same university.


As you can see, it's very difficult to answer general questions like the one you've just posted. If you narrow it down to specific departments in specific schools, you might get a better answer.

[powerslave]

Hey thanks for elaborating on something I'm sure you've said thousand times before.

Most of my queries are answered.. Thank You!

[swaroop]

ProcessControl did a fantastic job with that essay on Financial aid

I have some more doubts in this regard..

I understand that a financial statement (either from myself/my sponsor/my bank manager) is to be sent along with my application packet. This financial statement will prove to the university that I possess enough liquid cash in a current account to get me through atleast the first year.

My 1st question: Is sending this letter a must during application period? or can i do this after getting an admit ?(that could be with/without aid) ?

This money for one year I am talking about is what i am going to get after requesting a few relatives to invest in me and lend the cash.

MY second question: Would the university tend to not even consider me for an RA/TA ship because I would have shown financial strength for an year anyway?

My third question: What is the minimum period I would need to have the money in the bank prior to the date of application ?

Post admission, i intend to apply for an edu loan, and clear my debts with my relatives.

[ProcessControl]

Originally Posted by swaroop

I understand that a financial statement (either from myself/my sponsor/my bank manager) is to be sent along with my application packet. This financial statement will prove to the university that I possess enough liquid cash in a current account to get me through atleast the first year.

Yes, some schools like the University of Illinois require it. I believe that although all applicants are required to submit it, it's really intended for M.S. candidates who intend to fund themselves.

Most Ph.D. candidates will usually not go to a school where they need to fork out cash up front.

My 1st question: Is sending this letter a must during application period? or can i do this after getting an admit ?(that could be with/without aid) ?

I think you should look at your application checklist. If it is considered part of the application package, you must submit it in order for your application to be considered.

This money for one year I am talking about is what i am going to get after requesting a few relatives to invest in me and lend the cash.

When I submitted my financial statement, I had nowhere near the amount required for 1 year of residency, which was US$36,000. They admitted me anyway.

MY second question: Would the university tend to not even consider me for an RA/TA ship because I would have shown financial strength for an year anyway?

It depends on the university's policy. If you're an M.S. student, they probably won't offer you an RA/TA ship in the first semester anyway. But once you're there, you can always apply for a TA-ship. They can't turn you down then.

Most international students know this: once you have one foot in the door....

My third question: What is the minimum period I would need to have the money in the bank prior to the date of application ?

I don't think the university is going to check on your account balance. They can't, at any rate.

I suppose you can just pool your money, put it in the bank for one day, get a statement from the bank manager, and then disburse the money to your relatives the next day.

The purpose of the financial statement is really only for them to assess if they ought to admit you without funding. You see, I believe the logic goes like this:

M.S. funding logic
If candidate fits profile and is exceptional: offer admission and funding
If candidate is strong but does not fit profile, but has enough money to attend for 1-semester so we can assess him during his 1st semester at no risk to us: offer admission without funding.
If candidate is strong but lacks certain things, and has no money to attend: do not offer admission at all. Too risky.
If candidate is weak: do not offer admission at all.

But don't quote me on that.

[swaroop]

Neat answer there Process Control!

[ProcessControl]

Originally Posted by ProcessControl

It depends on the university's policy. If you're an M.S. student, they probably won't offer you an RA/TA ship in the first semester anyway. But once you're there, you can always apply for a TA-ship. They can't turn you down then.

I think I ought to clarify my answer on the above point. (it didn't come out all that clearly).

By the above, I mean you can apply for a TA-ship in the second semester. You still have to pay full tuition in your first semester, and have enough money to support yourself. And there are no guarantees about getting a TA-ship in the second semester either, so you must be prepared for that contingency.

Generally, not being funded sucks.

[kronique]

hey Process Control amazing stuff there man....way to go...thanx a lot...well now i know whom to turn to if i hav ne doubts regarding financial aid....

thanx a lot...