The Perverse Logic of IIM-A: The CAT.

[vingmat]

Hi earthlings,
What really upsets me is the fact that some of the best business schools in India - including the much-hyped and bandied about IIM at A seem to have a strange aversion to Indians applying through the GMAT. By some strange retro-logic they require ONLY Indians in India to give their proprietary CAT. We thus have a situation where NRIs or foreigners with scores of 730-740 can apply there while resident Indians with scores in the high 99th percentiles like me have to take their exam.
Of course, IIM-A has earned its reputation but this attitude of "I am holier than Harvard Business School" it seems to forment really sucks. After all, as the Economist said in a very interesting article, the IIM-A is the best in India only!
The only exception seems to be the ISB which is definitely on par with the IIMs and on track to go much higher. The admissions team and their approach to candidates is a real refresher compared to the 'CAT is God' approach of some IIM profs.
People rooting for the CAT should just realise that acing the GMAT requires something very, very crucial - the ability to take on problems rapid-fire with near-centum accuracy; there is hardly any scope for ANY error or question choice on the GMAT unlike the CAT where conditioned coaching alone helps to clear through.
The GMAT is something like a precisely calibrated weighing scale; when the world over some 1800 schools accept those scores and with the added advantage of being 100% tamper or leak proof, it is high time the folks at IIMs relooked at their entrance approach. More so when the time has come for them to fret over the logistics of conducting the CAT for over 1.5 lakh "freshers".
The only logic for conducting this CAT thing seems to be economic - the IIMs earn a cool 1,100 rupees ($25) scaled by 1.5 lakh from their exam what with the oodles of "fresh" early 20-somethings rooting to become managers even before they can get a real look at their first degree certificate. I really do not think this money can justify opportunity denial to folks like me who put in grinding marathons day after day prepping for the GMAT alongside highly demanding techie jobs - purely because of being resident in India.
Am I now expected to prepare for their CAT after months of tension for the GMAT to apply to IIM-A JUST because I am a resident Indian? Surely no other school discriminates against domicile candidates this way!

Revert with your thoughts folks!

Regards,
vin.

[spiderman]

hi vingmat,

here is my view point (just mine ).
I somehow will have to agree with IIM's selction procedure through CAT for people living in India. I am sure you will agree that GMAT is much easier and less stressful than CAT. so, it would be real unfair to compare them both. and GMAT and CAT are testing two very different things in my honest opinion. so they really have no comparison scale to covert a 780 to a CAT percentile.
Ofcourse, the question then comes, why CAT at all, why not shift it totally to GMAT. Here's one reason why they wont do it. it would be really hard to differentate applications. 1.5 lakh students. I am pretty sure more than half of them will score within the narrow range of 720-780 (so that would mean everyone in the 97-99 percentile rangle). I mean the way they prepare for CAT, if they put all their efforts into GMAT, defnitely they will all be in the same range with really very little to distinguish between applicants. The good thing about CAT is they set the percentiles depending on the students who are taking the CAT that year. So, its really easy to get a dispersed percentile from CAT.

and secondly, starting to make provisions of accepting GMAT scores for indians would i think degrade the standard of IIM's because of shifting from their own more competitive standard exam to a more common/les stressful (I am sure IIMs think of GMAT that way) GMAT. For example: the first time i heard that ISB is taking in GRE, i said what the heck ? why gre ? tomorrow they might take even people with just TOEFL score ? I mean it does tell you that they are desperate to increase the number of applicants. IIMs dont want that or rather they are so well established that they dont need to do that.

But again, like any b-school IIMs too are looking for diversity and they cant ask foreign nationals to come to India to take CAT in November. The only solution to which is GMAT. Just my opinion though. Btw, I have always been a big supporter of IIMs, so maybe i am not able to look from your viewpoint.

[savita]

I have to second what Spidey says. I had lived abroad here for almost 8 yrs
now and I see that IIM-A had established itself in its own league. If anything the downside of the IIM I see is that they do not require or cater to a large growing number of people who are mid-career professions. But like most things India, we are slow to innovate and take advantage of our own potential, a key to that is diversification. If today the IIMs were able to offer a simpler focussed 1 yr course for Mid-career professionals as well as tie up with other asian univs and world univs more, they really have the potential to become a world class univ.

By seriously taking that approach, ISB is able to differentiate itself. But it still has a long way to go in my thinking. The only thing which stops me from applying to ISB is their academic year starts in April. Come one what the heck is this weird timing when pretty much all schools across the world start in Fall. ( including the IIMs. Unless they specifically want people to lock into their 'admissions'...I see no other reason for them to start so early.

[spiderman]

I If today the IIMs were able to offer a simpler focussed 1 yr course for Mid-career professionals as well as tie up with other asian univs and world univs more, they really have the potential to become a world class univ.

savita, IIMA has just started a 1 y MBA program. Do check up their website. I am sure its because of the scare that ISB has given IIMs. but i think you need to have a minimum of 7 yr experience to get into the program. I heard this from my friend at IIMA. you might want to check their website. it might actually be of interest to you.

Unless they specifically want people to lock into their 'admissions'...I see no other reason for them to start so early.

i think that is the only reason !

personal statement: here's the IIMA site and their one year program.
http://www.iimahd.ernet.in/latest/pgpxone.htm

[savita]

hmm intersting information spidey. Guess globalization is causing change to happen.

Well, seems like the program is only starting in Apr 2006.

BTW, do you guys think 690 (91%) M/V 86%/83% is decent enough to INSEAD. I am looking at applying for the fall intake...?

I heard Indian's score high in GMAT, so that makes it very competitive. The rest of my app, is pretty good including my acads and gpa.

[spiderman]

BTW, do you guys think 690 (91%) M/V 86%/83% is decent enough to INSEAD. I am looking at applying for the fall intake...?

I heard Indian's score high in GMAT, so that makes it very competitive. The rest of my app, is pretty good including my acads and gpa.

I went through the b-w profile for INSEAD a month back and if i remember correctly their avg GMAT is 694. so u are well near the average range. But more importantly, I think being a female with 6+ work ex is a big plus . again, if i remember correctly only 25% of the incoming students were females and the avg work ex was aroung 5 yrs. So, i think you have a pretty good chance of getting in. btw, do verify the stats once in business week, i might be off a bit.

[vingmat]

Spidy, Savita and other folks,
The argument that the GMAT is infeasible in the Indian context because of the large numbers who apply to the IIMs cannot stand because every year the GMAT is attempted by more than double the number who applied to the IIMs this year. GMAC has managed to grade every single one of those applicants on a well-comparable basis. In fact, that afforded an objective parameter for comparison of people across differences of education/work profiles and nationalities thereby making the GMAT a major requirements at every major B-School worth its salt.
I would say it is highly unfair to compare the GMAT with the CAT and deem the former easier. ( I know this is a predominant school of thought among the IIM faculty). The English section on the GMAT is far tougher than the one on the CAT; the math questions though easier at the 600-700 level can easily get real hot once the 750 barrier is crossed. Most importantly the structure of the exam leaves very little room for error. The duration of the GMAT - which would take 4+ hours from the moment one enters the test room to exit coupled with the adaptive format, which basically ensures none gets too smart for the test - makes the GMAT a very demanding intellectual endeavour.
The Analysis of Issue and Argument sections provide an ideal platform to test out the applicant's clarity of thought and written presentation skills.
Above all, the GMAT is one exam where WYSIWYG holds hand in glove. I am yet to see one test taker who honestly endured for the test and came off with a below-par score. To that extent, it tests out the applicant's capacity to slog and current academic potential, exactly stuff B-Schools want to test out.
On the other hand, my analysis of this year's CAT paper tells me that there is no way one can clear this test without resorting to highly specialised test taking strategies; the English section is probably at the GMAT 700-720 level, at best. The math and the DI sections had questions I would term susceptible to be cracked ONLY by coaching centre strategies. The onus there is not on innovation; rather, it is on specialised preparation. The real rider is the impossible number of questions per se which again creates a lot of scope for vagaries on test taking day.
When schools like LBS and Wharton root for the GMAT rather than going ahead and conducting their own variations - one must not forget that the CAT was originally based on the GMAT and purports to test the same set of skills - there should be some compelling reason,isn't it? And this arrangement has stood the test of time; after all the GMAT has been going on around the world all through the year - the only change being the switch to the computer adaptive format - for more than 50 years now!
Coming to the ISB, folks, it has the highest dollar and rupee sals as also the highest average sals for grads of any school in India today. As a rediffmail article observed, the ISB starts where the IIMs end - the salary of MBA entrants at ISB last year was 6 lakhs approximately the average sal. of a fresh IIM graduate. Their selectivity at 10% and average scores are comparable to the world-best; the decision to accept GRE scores - remember the GRE is far tougher than the TOEFL! - probably stems from a desire to get a larger applicant pool and furthur decrease the selectivity ratio.
IIMs are great institutions but this attitude of "we are better than the world's best" is just not clear to me.!!!

[spiderman]

When schools like LBS and Wharton root for the GMAT rather than going ahead and conducting their own variations - one must not forget that the CAT was originally based on the GMAT and purports to test the same set of skills - there should be some compelling reason,isn't it? And this arrangement has stood the test of time; after all the GMAT has been going on around the world all through the year - the only change being the switch to the computer adaptive format - for more than 50 years now!

but compare the weightage that the b-schools in the US give to GMAT. you will find people with 650 scores in Wharton and LBS too but you will not find people with 85 percentile in any IIMs. I am not exactly sure, but I suppose the weightage for GMAT in B-schools in US might be around 15% compared to the around 60%-80% in IIMs for CAT.
SO, if the IIMs were to shift to GMAT. what will they now be comparing other than GMAT. considering that majority of the people applying are students with no work ex, who havent demonstrated any team skills/ leadership potential at work, it would really make it difficult for them to differentiate the applicants. On the other hand, Wharton, LBS etc have 85% weightage for things other than GMAT, which makes their work easier.

[thebullfighter]

or if they do, thy'll set th cut-offs at around 770-780 for sure.
btw, spidy. i learned somethin, though im out of th race for IIMs & some othr B-schools (which take CAT scores) but i do hav a chance at some othr colleges. (offcourse not th top 1s bt still gud enough). my score ws pretty bad, bt my %le may nt actually be tht bad, or atleast thts wat it seems by th analysis & stuff tht these profit-making coaching centres hav come out with. leave out th top 7-8 colleges(includin 5iims), n i should be gettin calls frm th rest of em' (offcourse, th 1s im applyin to). so keepin my fingures crossed till thn

[zorrillo]

This is an interesting topic. I have to agree with spiderman, but I don't think vingmat is altogether wrong; have you guys thought that maybe the Americans are far ahead of us where conducting tests is concerned! It's true. We're still living in the 80s and 90s with our paper-based CAT. And Indians have an inborn, natural aversion to change. But since the CAT mainly stresses on percentiles, the 'score' principle doesn't suit it well, as spiderman has pointed out. Besides, the IIMs did most of their weeding out in the GD PI stages and hence didn't bother much about their entrance CAT (..until the recent tangana with the leaked papers...). I know two people myself who got calls from all the IIMs, but didn't eventually make it to any of them.