Is it worth applying to a non US grad school?

[Quas]

Hey guys,

Congratulations to all those who got their dream admission!!! and all the best for those who are just beginning this long process called grad admission. After posting in diff threads, I realized that many of us have considered or are considering to apply to non US schools. Some are pretty sure of what their targets are but others wonder whether it is really worth to apply and study out of the USA. So, I thought of creating this thread to listen to what you have to say about it.

Let's start by myself. When I began the application process I consider 3 countries where I 'd like to pursue grad studies: USA, UK and Canada. After realizing that when you're an int student to get fund in UK is pretty hard, I gave up this option and focus on USA and Canada (plus one european school). I might say I got encouraging results (both in USA and Canada) but finally decided to attend to Canada (UBC, Econ grad prog). Reasons? academic quality comparable to lot of good US schools; lgood reputation in my field; living costs...

So, what do you have to say about it, guys? Under what conditions would you consider attending to a non US school's? Any else to say about it?

[reactor]

You probably know my thoughts.

UBC is (if not the top) among the top schools in Canada in Economics and Canada has a lot better quality of life compared to the US. (but maybe again this is a personal thing).

[TriEcon]

I'll chime in since I am going the LSE this fall for the econ msc. I'm an american and I would definitely consider attending econ phd outside of the US. If I like London and the LSE and everything falls into place, I would definitely consider staying there for the PhD track. But that all depends on admissions, funding, etc. versus my other options. I would give oxford, cambridge and UCL a good look too.

I think for many applicants, it depends on your goals for after graduation. Where do you want to work or teach after your PhD? If you are Canadian, and you want to live in Canada, going to the canadian PhD program is perfect. Same for europeans that want to stay in europe going to a european school. But if you want to cross borders (or continents) after you have the phd, you need to be prepared for the stigma attached to a foreign degree (especially if you are an American coming back to the US. Americans have a major homer bias, it's NOT justified, but it's true). It's not a good system, but we all have to play in it. You may need to be really good at what you do, to get someone to break the unspoken rules and hire you.

I am optimistic that some of these things are going to change. Not in my application cycle, but eventually. I think there are many non-US schools that are already world class or up-and-coming. Some of the leading present day economists are not in the US, but some of them have joint courtesy appointments with US schools (that is some interesting politics). Globalization and the spread of technology and information are changing the system a bit. The US schools are exporting enough highly trained grads to foreign countries that they will be able to train their best students in-house in the very near future.

Okay, not exactly answering all your questions Quas, but some more food for thought at least. And also, I think UBC is a great school. I may apply there myself next year (good faculty, strong in certain fields, awesome place to live).

[Quas]

I'll chime in since I am going the LSE this fall for the econ msc. I'm an american and I would definitely consider attending econ phd outside of the US.

Hi TriEcon...the fact that you're american makes perhaps your comment more appealing...I do agree with you in that many non us schools (at least econ schools) are as good as lot of US's...however, you pointed out a very important aspect when you apply for one of them: the stigma you have to carry out if you remotely think of getting a postition in the USA...well, it might also be the club-bias that all the good schools have so that they hire who they train...anyway, if look at this on the other side, it is pretty good for the rest of the world that some very good human capital do not flow into the states...after all, very well trainned human capital seems to be the only way to incorporate the gain of globalization into everybody's life...

Okay, not exactly answering all your questions Quas, but some more food for thought at least. And also, I think UBC is a great school. I may apply there myself next year (good faculty, strong in certain fields, awesome place to live).

You've certainly helped a lot...my idea was not to get answers but to get opinions and...so far, so good

What about you guys who are not looking for an econ degree? (of course, more econ guys' opinions are very welcome )

[Quas]

Upppssss....TriEcon, forgot to tell you smth: CONGRATULATIONS for your LSE admission!!!!

[Madeleine]

I took some MA classes in the UK two years ago as an exchange student and really enjoyed both my classes and the country. I would have liked to stay in the UK for my PhD, but universities offer no funding for EU students
That's why I'm heading to the US in August, and in the end I'm very happy about this I want to go into academics (at least for some years) and I hope I'll get just about anywhere with my US PhD

TriEcon, London is great, great fashion and great music, great markets, great parks, lots of museums, beautiful buildings. I hope you'll have lots of fun (and everything will go well with your studies). Don't be afraid of English food, it can be yummy (try a "spotted ****" or scones and clotted cream, yummy )

[Quas]

I took some MA classes in the UK two years ago as an exchange student and really enjoyed both my classes and the country. I would have liked to stay in the UK for my PhD, but universities offer no funding for EU students
That's why I'm heading to the US in August, and in the end I'm very happy about this I want to go into academics (at least for some years) and I hope I'll get just about anywhere with my US PhD

Hi Madeleine...first of all, congratulations on your admission to a PhD in the states!!! I'd just like to ask you a question, why didn't you tried another country, say Australia or Canada? were you unable to get funds even outside UK? do you always wanted to go to the States? what is your field?

[TheBrothersKaramazov]

Hey all,
Well, as a current Canadian undergrad, I am planning to disperse next year's grad applications between Canada, the US, and the UK. I love Canada for so many reasons, and if i had to choose just based on a country, i would stay here. But since i am from the Toronto area, i'd be more inclined to try a new city, like Vancouver or Montreal. Plus, i have family, boyfriend (who will be doing grad work here), and friends which i don't really want to leave for four years. Vancouver and montreal are alot closer than London.

But i worry about the saturated job market when i come out of my phd. I do NOT want to work in a non-academic position. So, i will try to go to the best school possible. If it means going to a school in the US, so be it. I would be interested in the UK if it wasn't so expensive.

But from what i've read in a number of places, the US econ phd candidates are alot more time focused than other phd students. For example, at my university, we have most phds sticking around for 6-7 years writing their thesis. It seems like at other schools (eg. princeton, yale).. it's much more time structured and they push you out quickly. (whether that's a reflection on EITHER program, i don't know). I would rather get my PhD done quicker and get on with my career.

Canada is much less expensive for a grad student. Even if you didn't get any tuition scholarship, UBC only charges a little over $3000 CDN/year! Okay! Compare that to most schools in the US or UK! Toronto is close to $6000 .. still not bad. Plus with our weaker exchange rate (though growing steadily!), it wouldn't be so financially feasible to study abroad. If a US or UK school offered a full tuition and living stipend, i would give it serious thought. I haven't given any thought to doing graduate work in Australia... Maybe working there, but probably not studying there.

And i am very interested in urban economics ... i haven't found many schools with specialties in this ... so, that limits me to a number of programs.

But i'll give credit to US programs in that they don't require an MA for admissions. I don't know whether i even have a chance to get in with a canadian undergrad degree, but the thought of just jumping straight in instead of diddle-dallying through an MA is appealing. Although, i think this may change over the next few years. More and more, you're seeing international students taking more spots up in (econ) phd programs, and fewer american students getting these spots. And most of these int'l students have MAs. hmmm. something to ponder??

[Quas]

Hey all,
But i worry about the saturated job market when i come out of my phd. I do NOT want to work in a non-academic position. So, i will try to go to the best school possible. If it means going to a school in the US, so be it. I would be interested in the UK if it wasn't so expensive.

Hi TheBrothersKaramazov...the saturation of the market will be a problem wherever you gte you PhD from...I agree in that a US degree (say from MIT or UPenn) might open more doors but so might do a top canadian one if you think of working in Canada after graduating. I am not that sure that in 5-6 more years the market will remain that saturated as there are lots of faculty thinking of retirement...this is going on in the US and probably has already taken place in Canada (as you might see lot of young faculty at top candian schools)...in any case, it is always better to do a superb thesis in a 'good university' than to do a bad thesis in a top school...

But from what i've read in a number of places, the US econ phd candidates are alot more time focused than other phd students. For example, at my university, we have most phds sticking around for 6-7 years writing their thesis...

This depends on the student, the topic and the supervisor...among others. There are some US schools where you can be 7 or 8 years working on your thesis (have you ever heard that to get into Chicago is the easy part...to get out is the hard one)...the american schools follow the same system (2 years of courses + thesis) so it shouldn't be such a difference between Canada and US...think of an average of 5-6 years to complete your degree no matter you choose to go to the states or to stay in canada...

And i am very interested in urban economics ... i haven't found many schools with specialties in this ... so, that limits me to a number of programs.

You should take a look at econphd.net. In any case, you have in Canada a very good school in urban economics: UBC (although you should be aware the guys doing urban economics has moved to Warwick, UK)...

But i'll give credit to US programs in that they don't require an MA for admissions. I don't know whether i even have a chance to get in with a canadian undergrad degree, but the thought of just jumping straight in instead of diddle-dallying through an MA is appealing. Although, i think this may change over the next few years. More and more, you're seeing international students taking more spots up in (econ) phd programs, and fewer american students getting these spots. And most of these int'l students have MAs. hmmm. something to ponder??

I don't really agree with you in that US schools do no require a MA to get into their PhD programs. It is true they do not require it in writing, but they do it in practice. If you do not hold a top undergrad degree (say from Princeton, Chicago, MIT) I guess you will be in disadvantage. Now, if you have a degree in math or physics from a top canadian school...the thing is that US schools (as well as canadians) look at the MA as a signal that you are aware what to do graduate work means...it also counts the fact you've been exposed to some econ, but mainly because you have faced proof-based courses and you're aware what you're getting into...

Well, this is what I think, based on my own experience and on what I've seen with my friends, but of course I might prove to be totally wrong...

[TheBrothersKaramazov]

haha yes, i have heard about chicago, and will thus not apply there! And I am disappointed to hear about the UBC urban econ guy moving to Warwick. I liked that UBC had someone with that background. I've gone through the econphd.net site a gazillion times and the only schools i'd be happy to be at are MIT, princeton, yale, UBC, Toronto. hahaha outrageous expections?!? so i most likely will take the MA route if i have to. And i agree that SOME schools will allow their PhD students to stick around longer, but I find that to be far more the case here in Canada than in the United States. Perhaps funding gets cut off in the States? Starving phd candidate works quicker??

yeah, it is wishful thinking to hope to get into a US school without an MA... but i think i'll apply anyway, and see if it works. no harm in getting rejected and reapplying with an MA, right? (actually, if anyone has any advice or previous experience on that, i'd like to hear it).

From speaking to the hiring committee within my own department, they do acknowedge that canadian students are just as good and well trained, but there is still that underlying desire to hire US students. Most Canadian faculties are made up of mainly US graduates, and maybe there is an underlying bias. In my dept, in the last 5 years, new professors have come from: UW-Madison, U Toronto, Queens, Queens, Princeton, McMaster, stanford, and berkley. Well, i'm starting to feel threatened by the Americans!! I think UBC may prove this wrong very soon, because it's reputation has been growing very strong and their grad students will become more valuable on the cdn market.

I FULLY AGREE WITH THE GOOD THESIS FROM ANY-SCHOOL VS. BAD THESIS FROM TOP SCHOOL. 100% in agreement. Just hoping i can pull off that good thesis! . And as for the math background, i have all the calc I, II, III, linear algebra I, II, prob. theory, differential equations, stochastic processes, etc. but in my opinion, this has become the norm. And besides, you need it just to be able to listen quasi-comfortably to lectures. Canadian schools don't require it so much for the MA, but by the PhD i guess it ought to be assumed knowledge.

I am most definite about working in either Canada or Australia... Canadian phds have been well-placed in many australian universities.

What is your field in econ again, Quas?