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Finance501 · 07-01-2006, 01:14 PM

I just finished a stats course at Columbia School of Continuing Ed. I graduated a few years ago, and am taking a few courses to apply to EE grad school. I went to the prof who had given me a much lower grade than I've received as an undergrad. He told me not to worry because I was competing against engineers in the class, so I wouldn't be doing as well. First, I have engineering coursework. Second, since he didn't know my background, why did he presume he did? (incorrectly in this instance) I just wonder if being a few years older means profs are grading me on my age rather than on how well I know the material. I hadn't taken this area of stats before, but I had done much better in my stat and engineering undergrad courses. He's also foreign and doesn't speak English that well so he should be wary of making prejudiced assumptions against nontraditional students like me. So why isn't he? Also he's teaching in the evening when nontraditional students take these courses. If he doesn't understand nontraditional students, why did he opt to teach an evening course?

asquare · 07-02-2006, 02:47 AM

You could certainly talk to the professor and ask him about the grading scale he used, or what you would have had to do differently to get a higher grade.

But sorry, your story sounds like you are whining because you didn't do well in the class. Accusing a professor of being biased against you and giving you a bad grade because of his personal feelings is serious business -- how do you know that you deserved a higher grade? Having done well in undergrad stats courses -- a different type of statistics, several years ago, with different professors, and possibly at a different university -- doesn't mean that you "deserve" a good grade in this class. Without having seen other students' exams, how do you know that you didn't just get out-performed?

Also, what does the professor's being foreign have to do with anything? No professor should make assumptions about students. It sounds like you are the one making assumptions here -- that the professor was somehow biased against you, and that you deserved a higher grade than you got. Carrying the "he's out to get me" attitude to graduate school is a recipe for disaster.

Finance501 · 07-02-2006, 11:03 AM

About 10% of the some 17,800 age-discrimination claims filed last year with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission were related to hiring.
But those figures undoubtedly leave uncounted a great number of job seekers who never file a claim even if they bear the brunt of age bias.
"It's probably one of the lowest number of charges filed with the EEOC, not because it's not prevalent but because they don't have the proof," said Laurie McCann, a senior attorney with AARP.
"They might have a gut feeling that they didn't get hired because of their age, but they're on the outside looking in and they don't know in most cases who got hired instead of them, what that person's age is and how their qualifications compare to that person's," she said.
Older job seekers are convinced it's happening, and that includes highly-paid executives.
"Once you get into your early 50s, folks really begin to feel that their age is ... a negative factor in that hiring decision," said Marc Cenedella, president of TheLadders.com, an online job board focused on positions that pay $100,000 or more.
"We hear that all the time," he said. Sixty-nine percent of executives said they'd been victims of age discrimination, according to a recent survey of members of TheLadders.com. See the Web site.
How much of that is simply frustration from people who can't find a job? No one knows. But Cenedella claims the bulk of it is age bias.
"Maybe there's a little bit of that sour grapes, but I've heard [about age bias] from so many different people in so many different tones of voice and stations and across the country ... it really does exist in this country," he said.

Segal said he can’t understand why any employer would discriminate against an applicant or employee on the basis of age, because “older workers have a wealth of knowledge and experience that should be invaluable to any organization.” Discrimination in any form is wrong, he said, and to severely limit your access to a productive, knowledgeable and skilled sector of the workforce because of age bias is plain foolish—especially in a tight labor market. Segal pointed to labor market estimates that show U.S. employers will face a shortage ranging from 800,000 to 3.3 million workers by 2010.
Nevertheless, Segal said many employers are clearly guilty of what he called the “Dracula complex.”
“They want newer and fresher blood, because they’re under the mistaken impression that it can bring vitality to an organization,” he said. “However, experience and research show us that vitality, productivity and creativity are not age-related at all.”
Segal said it’s easy for employers to address some problems with age discrimination by making sure to avoid improper job interview questions about age and to use uniform interview questions for all employees. Uniform questions can protect employers from unconscious age bias and illustrate their commitment to equal employment opportunity, Segal said.
He said that employers need to be aware of their decision-making processes and remove unlawful considerations of age.
“In other words, there is no such thing as a ‘young person’s job,’ and discomfort with older employees is never a defense in an age-discrimination claim,” he said. “Management should ensure consistency of all hiring and promotions decisions regardless of age relative to providing opportunities, offering training, setting expectations and measuring the results. Everyone must be treated equally.”
Segal said that while it’s relatively easy for employers to make procedural changes such as uniform interview questions, the larger challenge is re-shaping perceptions and trying to end what he called “age bias.”
“Many times our subconscious drives our conscious decisions, and, while many of us claim that we aren’t biased, sometimes our actions clearly say the opposite is true,” Segal said.

The Supreme Court made it easier Wednesday for any worker over 40 to allege age discrimination, ruling that employers can be held liable even if they never intended any harm.

About 75 million people — roughly half the nation's work force — are covered by the decision. However, the unanimous ruling makes it clear that older workers will have a high threshold to prove their claims.

Justice John Paul Stevens wrote that in some cases employers are within their rights to treat workers differently because of age.

"Age ... not uncommonly has relevance to an individual's capacity to engage in certain types of employment," wrote Stevens, who at 84 is the court's oldest member.

The ruling sides with older police officers in Jackson, Miss., in saying they do not have to prove that the city deliberately tried to discriminate against them, just that the policies disproportionately harmed them. Nevertheless, the high court dismissed the suit, saying officers did not demonstrate that.

The ruling means that older workers now have less of a burden to raise their claim in court when suing under federal law, although ultimately it may still be hard for them to win.

asquare · 07-02-2006, 04:02 PM

Just as workers suing for age bias have to be able to show that their age, rather than their performance, was a factor in their not being hired/promoted/given a raise, you would need to show that it was your age not your answers on exams that led to your lower grade. So I ask again -- did you see other students' exams? How do you know that you didn't get the grade you deserved, relative to the rest of the class and the professor's legitimate standards? Do you even know what the grade distribution was? Perhaps he didn't give any As -- do you know? Do you even know how old other students in the class were? It's not so easy to tell just by looking at someone -- and you say that you "graduated a few years ago" -- how do you know how old the professor thinks you are?

Does age discrimination exist? Sure. But did it happen in this case? Well, you haven't convinced me. But more importantly, I think it's a bad idea for someone planning to go to graduate school to immediately assume that if he didn't get the grade he thought he deserved, it was because the professor didn't like him. The focus on grades rather than learning, the arrogance, and the combatitiveness are all things that will interfere with success as a graduate student.

werner · 07-02-2006, 04:37 PM

as for exams, it is important to focus on the main idea. maybe you should try to be more focussed and precise so that you can turn your knowledge into good grades. sometimes we state a lot of things and forget about the underlying question. every prof will penalize that.
personally, I did not want to read your second post after struggling through your first.
if your grades are just low but your relative performance in the course is good, I would ask for a letter accompanying the transcript.

Finance501 · 07-03-2006, 09:05 AM

1. If my undergrad grades were graphed on a scatterplot, the grade from this professor would be an outlier. I'm basing my explanation on the whole graph, not ignoring the preponderance of the graph and defending the outlier.
2. The professor made an unsubstantiated remark regarding the fact that I'm not an engineer. My explanation accounts for this remark but yours does not.
3. It's arguably combative to offer unsolicited advice on a website.

81Ala · 07-03-2006, 11:32 AM

1. Well, you didn't do too well then. Why would you plot your undergrad grades and grades for evening classes you're taking now together? Aren't you in a different situation now?
2. What's your explanation then? Old people cannot be engineers in the eyes of that professor?
3. So you didn't ask for advice, you just posted here to whine a bit and to receive messages saying how evil the idiot who gave you a bad grade is?

asquare · 07-03-2006, 02:35 PM

I think you should apply to law school instead of studing EE!

(Also -- as 81Ala pointed out -- individual characteristics AND characteristics of the school, like grading scale and other students' abilities, are determinants of grade in an individual class. Your hypothetical scatter plot interpretation suffers from omitted variable bias.

The remark about not being an engineer is NOT the same thing as saying, "you're old and I don't give old students good grades."

I've posted my opinion, which is what this website is about. Oh, wait -- I didn't see the new rules, it's your personal theater to act out the drama of your life!!)

Finance501 · 07-04-2006, 07:14 PM

Asquare, you have about 100 posts on this website, and I have four. You're 2500 times ahead of me in baring the drama of one's life to the world at large. I hope that isn't your strongest argument. Any backups?

shootermcgavin7 · 07-04-2006, 08:01 PM

You probably aren't getting the response you wanted because the board is normally used to help people, not whine about grades and spout conspiracy theories about professors.

07-01-2006, 01:14 PM	#1 (permalink)
Finance501 Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 11	Stats Grade I just finished a stats course at Columbia School of Continuing Ed. I graduated a few years ago, and am taking a few courses to apply to EE grad school. I went to the prof who had given me a much lower grade than I've received as an undergrad. He told me not to worry because I was competing against engineers in the class, so I wouldn't be doing as well. First, I have engineering coursework. Second, since he didn't know my background, why did he presume he did? (incorrectly in this instance) I just wonder if being a few years older means profs are grading me on my age rather than on how well I know the material. I hadn't taken this area of stats before, but I had done much better in my stat and engineering undergrad courses. He's also foreign and doesn't speak English that well so he should be wary of making prejudiced assumptions against nontraditional students like me. So why isn't he? Also he's teaching in the evening when nontraditional students take these courses. If he doesn't understand nontraditional students, why did he opt to teach an evening course?

07-02-2006, 11:03 AM	#3 (permalink)
Finance501 Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 11	age bias About 10% of the some 17,800 age-discrimination claims filed last year with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission were related to hiring. But those figures undoubtedly leave uncounted a great number of job seekers who never file a claim even if they bear the brunt of age bias. "It's probably one of the lowest number of charges filed with the EEOC, not because it's not prevalent but because they don't have the proof," said Laurie McCann, a senior attorney with AARP. "They might have a gut feeling that they didn't get hired because of their age, but they're on the outside looking in and they don't know in most cases who got hired instead of them, what that person's age is and how their qualifications compare to that person's," she said. Older job seekers are convinced it's happening, and that includes highly-paid executives. "Once you get into your early 50s, folks really begin to feel that their age is ... a negative factor in that hiring decision," said Marc Cenedella, president of TheLadders.com, an online job board focused on positions that pay $100,000 or more. "We hear that all the time," he said. Sixty-nine percent of executives said they'd been victims of age discrimination, according to a recent survey of members of TheLadders.com. See the Web site. How much of that is simply frustration from people who can't find a job? No one knows. But Cenedella claims the bulk of it is age bias. "Maybe there's a little bit of that sour grapes, but I've heard [about age bias] from so many different people in so many different tones of voice and stations and across the country ... it really does exist in this country," he said. Segal said he can’t understand why any employer would discriminate against an applicant or employee on the basis of age, because “older workers have a wealth of knowledge and experience that should be invaluable to any organization.” Discrimination in any form is wrong, he said, and to severely limit your access to a productive, knowledgeable and skilled sector of the workforce because of age bias is plain foolish—especially in a tight labor market. Segal pointed to labor market estimates that show U.S. employers will face a shortage ranging from 800,000 to 3.3 million workers by 2010. Nevertheless, Segal said many employers are clearly guilty of what he called the “Dracula complex.” “They want newer and fresher blood, because they’re under the mistaken impression that it can bring vitality to an organization,” he said. “However, experience and research show us that vitality, productivity and creativity are not age-related at all.” Segal said it’s easy for employers to address some problems with age discrimination by making sure to avoid improper job interview questions about age and to use uniform interview questions for all employees. Uniform questions can protect employers from unconscious age bias and illustrate their commitment to equal employment opportunity, Segal said. He said that employers need to be aware of their decision-making processes and remove unlawful considerations of age. “In other words, there is no such thing as a ‘young person’s job,’ and discomfort with older employees is never a defense in an age-discrimination claim,” he said. “Management should ensure consistency of all hiring and promotions decisions regardless of age relative to providing opportunities, offering training, setting expectations and measuring the results. Everyone must be treated equally.” Segal said that while it’s relatively easy for employers to make procedural changes such as uniform interview questions, the larger challenge is re-shaping perceptions and trying to end what he called “age bias.” “Many times our subconscious drives our conscious decisions, and, while many of us claim that we aren’t biased, sometimes our actions clearly say the opposite is true,” Segal said. The Supreme Court made it easier Wednesday for any worker over 40 to allege age discrimination, ruling that employers can be held liable even if they never intended any harm. About 75 million people — roughly half the nation's work force — are covered by the decision. However, the unanimous ruling makes it clear that older workers will have a high threshold to prove their claims. Justice John Paul Stevens wrote that in some cases employers are within their rights to treat workers differently because of age. "Age ... not uncommonly has relevance to an individual's capacity to engage in certain types of employment," wrote Stevens, who at 84 is the court's oldest member. The ruling sides with older police officers in Jackson, Miss., in saying they do not have to prove that the city deliberately tried to discriminate against them, just that the policies disproportionately harmed them. Nevertheless, the high court dismissed the suit, saying officers did not demonstrate that. The ruling means that older workers now have less of a burden to raise their claim in court when suing under federal law, although ultimately it may still be hard for them to win. Last edited by Finance501 : 07-02-2006 at 11:03 AM. Reason: Automerged post

07-03-2006, 09:05 AM	#6 (permalink)
Finance501 Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 11	reply 1. If my undergrad grades were graphed on a scatterplot, the grade from this professor would be an outlier. I'm basing my explanation on the whole graph, not ignoring the preponderance of the graph and defending the outlier. 2. The professor made an unsubstantiated remark regarding the fact that I'm not an engineer. My explanation accounts for this remark but yours does not. 3. It's arguably combative to offer unsolicited advice on a website.

07-04-2006, 07:14 PM	#9 (permalink)
Finance501 Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 11	Asquare Asquare, you have about 100 posts on this website, and I have four. You're 2500 times ahead of me in baring the drama of one's life to the world at large. I hope that isn't your strongest argument. Any backups?

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07-02-2006, 02:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
asquare TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ann Arbor Posts: 1,345	You could certainly talk to the professor and ask him about the grading scale he used, or what you would have had to do differently to get a higher grade. But sorry, your story sounds like you are whining because you didn't do well in the class. Accusing a professor of being biased against you and giving you a bad grade because of his personal feelings is serious business -- how do you know that you deserved a higher grade? Having done well in undergrad stats courses -- a different type of statistics, several years ago, with different professors, and possibly at a different university -- doesn't mean that you "deserve" a good grade in this class. Without having seen other students' exams, how do you know that you didn't just get out-performed? Also, what does the professor's being foreign have to do with anything? No professor should make assumptions about students. It sounds like you are the one making assumptions here -- that the professor was somehow biased against you, and that you deserved a higher grade than you got. Carrying the "he's out to get me" attitude to graduate school is a recipe for disaster.

07-02-2006, 04:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
asquare TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ann Arbor Posts: 1,345	Just as workers suing for age bias have to be able to show that their age, rather than their performance, was a factor in their not being hired/promoted/given a raise, you would need to show that it was your age not your answers on exams that led to your lower grade. So I ask again -- did you see other students' exams? How do you know that you didn't get the grade you deserved, relative to the rest of the class and the professor's legitimate standards? Do you even know what the grade distribution was? Perhaps he didn't give any As -- do you know? Do you even know how old other students in the class were? It's not so easy to tell just by looking at someone -- and you say that you "graduated a few years ago" -- how do you know how old the professor thinks you are? Does age discrimination exist? Sure. But did it happen in this case? Well, you haven't convinced me. But more importantly, I think it's a bad idea for someone planning to go to graduate school to immediately assume that if he didn't get the grade he thought he deserved, it was because the professor didn't like him. The focus on grades rather than learning, the arrogance, and the combatitiveness are all things that will interfere with success as a graduate student.

07-02-2006, 04:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
werner Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 12	as for exams, it is important to focus on the main idea. maybe you should try to be more focussed and precise so that you can turn your knowledge into good grades. sometimes we state a lot of things and forget about the underlying question. every prof will penalize that. personally, I did not want to read your second post after struggling through your first. if your grades are just low but your relative performance in the course is good, I would ask for a letter accompanying the transcript.

07-03-2006, 11:32 AM	#7 (permalink)
81Ala Eager! Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 36	1. Well, you didn't do too well then. Why would you plot your undergrad grades and grades for evening classes you're taking now together? Aren't you in a different situation now? 2. What's your explanation then? Old people cannot be engineers in the eyes of that professor? 3. So you didn't ask for advice, you just posted here to whine a bit and to receive messages saying how evil the idiot who gave you a bad grade is?

07-03-2006, 02:35 PM	#8 (permalink)
asquare TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ann Arbor Posts: 1,345	I think you should apply to law school instead of studing EE! (Also -- as 81Ala pointed out -- individual characteristics AND characteristics of the school, like grading scale and other students' abilities, are determinants of grade in an individual class. Your hypothetical scatter plot interpretation suffers from omitted variable bias. The remark about not being an engineer is NOT the same thing as saying, "you're old and I don't give old students good grades." I've posted my opinion, which is what this website is about. Oh, wait -- I didn't see the new rules, it's your personal theater to act out the drama of your life!!)

07-04-2006, 08:01 PM	#10 (permalink)
shootermcgavin7 Within my grasp! Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 495	You probably aren't getting the response you wanted because the board is normally used to help people, not whine about grades and spout conspiracy theories about professors.

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