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b82rez · 07-17-2006, 03:04 PM

Howdy forum folk,

I've been viewing posts for awhile but was a little hesitant to post about myself...guess I'm scared of the harsh comments which may follow...

I received my B.A in econ January 2005 from Rutgers. Now, without getting into detail, let's just say that several factors contributed to a very poor cumulative GPA (about 2.8 or so). While certain factors may not have been my fault, I will say that a large portion of my failure did have to deal with my inability to adjust properly to the college way of life and poor time management.

Regardless...I sort of got on the wagon by the end getting a 3.0, 3.4, and 3.6 during my last three semesters respectively. I know this is not exceptional, but it made me think that I had some potential. I have been contemplating the following path and would love any comments you may have:

Since I know I cannot get into any decent econ PhD program at this juncture:

-Take GRE's by early September
-Sign up for Calc2 non-credit fall semester
-Apply (and hopefully get in) to the Masters of Public Policy program at Rutgers for Fall 2007
-During the 2 year M.A. program, take a math class each semester including one during the summer sessions.
-After my first year, obtain letters of recommendation and attempt to get into a resepectable econ phd program (while acing all my classes...)

Now here is my rationale. I enjoyed thoroughly my urban planning/policy elective classes along with my econ classes during my undergrad. IF I feel that I am unable to handle the math required for Econ PhD I can go for my PhD in Urban Planning/Policy.

I have the will to do whatever it takes. It may seem like a fool's hope but it is true and any doubters will be proven wrong!

Anyhoot, what do you guys think? Is this a feasible plan? Will I fall on my face? Be constructive or be evil in your responses, all are welcome!

one_for_fourteen · 07-17-2006, 08:13 PM

Hi,
I don't believe that you're down and out by any stretch at this point. However, your ability to get into a PhD program that's worth going will hinge entirely on your performance in the math courses that you have yet to take. Unfortunately, admissions committees often make their choices based on who will make a better masters student, rather than a better PhD student, so the math is super important. You'll need A's to show the schools that the trend you began in the past few semesters of college is a permanent change. Many very good schools will be forgiving of a rocky past, so long as they are certain that it's the past, and won't rear its head again.
Also, making connections with professors that are connected to econ programs will be a HUGE help. Best of luck.

shootermcgavin7 · 07-17-2006, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b82rez

Now here is my rationale. I enjoyed thoroughly my urban planning/policy elective classes along with my econ classes during my undergrad. IF I feel that I am unable to handle the math required for Econ PhD I can go for my PhD in Urban Planning/Policy.

Since you've already enjoyed your urban planning/policy courses in undergrad, that may be something you should seriously consider if you really want a PhD.

As you know from other posts on the board, graduate economics and undergraduate economics are very different.

b82rez · 07-19-2006, 02:31 PM

thanks for the responses guys:

one_for_fourteen: so do you think it would be a good idea to go ahead with what i planned or should i seek out a degree in something directly math/stat related?

I have heard that MA in Econ is not looked upon with high regard (more along the lines of "I can't make PhD") and so I figured that by getting my M.P.P. I would have something to fall back on if I don't manage a PhD.

shootermcgavin7: I enjoyed my econ classes just as much. I do know the difference between undergrad and grad for econ (at least based on what has been posted and talked about). I have gotten the impression that if you go INTO the Econ PhD program with a very strong math background, then you will not have to spend time worrying about the math and will be able to dive into the economic aspects quicker. Is this a correct view? I thought that taking another 5-6 math classes before going into the program would significantly help me in that regard (one each semester from this fall to spring 2009).

notacolour · 07-19-2006, 05:23 PM

I was thinking the other day about how this undergrad/grad coursework dichotomy isn't all that different in econ than in, say, english programs.

Undergrads decide to major in english because they love literature, they have profs that inspire them to want to spend the rest of their lives studying Milton or Fitzgerald or Kristeva. Then they hit grad school, and suddenly everything is lit theory, gender theory, socialist theory, theory, theory.

Econ isn't all that different. Most undergrads get inspired to major in econ because they love macro and want to become the next Greenspan, or they love applied game theory, or they really enjoy seeing how little graphs interact and move around as market forces act, or whatever. Most undergrads barely have to worry about math. Maybe some calculus, but never proving the concavity of indifference curves or proving decreasing returns to scale under a particular theoretical model or whatever. All that stuff hits in grad school, and it can be a rude awakening.

So part of addressing this is having a firm mathematical background, but that doesn't mean that you can take the math as a given and worry about the "economic aspects," since economic aspects are a minor issue at least until you pass the core courses. Most of your graduate courses won't be about figuring out how to address economic problems, because you'll be trained to worry about proving the underlying theoretical basis of any strategy, first and foremost.

One big difference I see between econ and other fields is that in econ, you aren't cast out of academia for wanting to apply your knowledge once you get out of grad school. In English, if you want to study literature but not be heavily into theory, you're almost certainly not going to do well in academia. In econ, the majority of academics see theory as a tool, not an end, even though almost all of them went through grad programs that were almost exclusively oriented towards greater theoretical knowledge at the expense of any application.

Several profs I've spoken to have suggested that this is often due to the fact that theory people tend to teach the core, but I've already written more than enough. At any rate, this seems to be a major reason why people drop out of econ programs. I would strongly encourage people to gain a greater understanding of what, exactly, graduate study entails before undertaking it. Definitely go read MWG, for example. And if that's not what you want to spend years on, there are many other programs that may be more up your alley--public policy, or urban planning (which I have considered myself, more than a few times...), business PhD...

b82rez · 07-19-2006, 07:23 PM

notacolour: thanks for the response

I have thought for awhile that schooling mostly teaches theory while it is up to the individual to applicate what is taught. Obviously theories discussed within class will not fully function in the real-world, but it is a tool to help one "out there"...

As far as taking math "as a given"...I was referring to the "minimum requirements" schools often have for PhD programs in Economics. They often say at least one year of calc,linear algebra, semester of statistics...After reading this forum I have come to conclude that by going into grad school with much more than that would greatly enhance one's ability to understand the material being thrown at them for their core courses. Meaning, maybe I would be able to follow why certain mathematical theorems are used instead of worrying about the proper way to calculate some problem based on formula memorization (am i making sense?).

This is why I was suggesting taking the Math courses throught MA program so I know if I can infact handle the math. Also, perhaps I would be able to substitute some graduate econ classes in place of some public policy classes to get a feel. Basically, I am just wondering if this is a proper idea given my poor undergraduate career.

And also, would excelling at Rutgers be good enought to get me into a top 10 school for PhD? Their public policy program does look packed with analytical courses and I know there are many well-respected faculty members there..

b82rez · 07-19-2006, 07:24 PM

07-17-2006, 03:04 PM	#1 (permalink)
b82rez Eager! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 35	Advice needed...willing to fight tooth and nail Howdy forum folk, I've been viewing posts for awhile but was a little hesitant to post about myself...guess I'm scared of the harsh comments which may follow... I received my B.A in econ January 2005 from Rutgers. Now, without getting into detail, let's just say that several factors contributed to a very poor cumulative GPA (about 2.8 or so). While certain factors may not have been my fault, I will say that a large portion of my failure did have to deal with my inability to adjust properly to the college way of life and poor time management. Regardless...I sort of got on the wagon by the end getting a 3.0, 3.4, and 3.6 during my last three semesters respectively. I know this is not exceptional, but it made me think that I had some potential. I have been contemplating the following path and would love any comments you may have: Since I know I cannot get into any decent econ PhD program at this juncture: -Take GRE's by early September -Sign up for Calc2 non-credit fall semester -Apply (and hopefully get in) to the Masters of Public Policy program at Rutgers for Fall 2007 -During the 2 year M.A. program, take a math class each semester including one during the summer sessions. -After my first year, obtain letters of recommendation and attempt to get into a resepectable econ phd program (while acing all my classes...) Now here is my rationale. I enjoyed thoroughly my urban planning/policy elective classes along with my econ classes during my undergrad. IF I feel that I am unable to handle the math required for Econ PhD I can go for my PhD in Urban Planning/Policy. I have the will to do whatever it takes. It may seem like a fool's hope but it is true and any doubters will be proven wrong! Anyhoot, what do you guys think? Is this a feasible plan? Will I fall on my face? Be constructive or be evil in your responses, all are welcome!

07-19-2006, 02:31 PM	#4 (permalink)
b82rez Eager! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 35	thanks thanks for the responses guys: one_for_fourteen: so do you think it would be a good idea to go ahead with what i planned or should i seek out a degree in something directly math/stat related? I have heard that MA in Econ is not looked upon with high regard (more along the lines of "I can't make PhD") and so I figured that by getting my M.P.P. I would have something to fall back on if I don't manage a PhD. shootermcgavin7: I enjoyed my econ classes just as much. I do know the difference between undergrad and grad for econ (at least based on what has been posted and talked about). I have gotten the impression that if you go INTO the Econ PhD program with a very strong math background, then you will not have to spend time worrying about the math and will be able to dive into the economic aspects quicker. Is this a correct view? I thought that taking another 5-6 math classes before going into the program would significantly help me in that regard (one each semester from this fall to spring 2009).

07-19-2006, 07:24 PM	#7 (permalink)
b82rez Eager! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 35	Last edited by b82rez : 07-19-2006 at 07:31 PM. Reason: double post

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07-17-2006, 08:13 PM	#2 (permalink)
one_for_fourteen Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 7	Hi, I don't believe that you're down and out by any stretch at this point. However, your ability to get into a PhD program that's worth going will hinge entirely on your performance in the math courses that you have yet to take. Unfortunately, admissions committees often make their choices based on who will make a better masters student, rather than a better PhD student, so the math is super important. You'll need A's to show the schools that the trend you began in the past few semesters of college is a permanent change. Many very good schools will be forgiving of a rocky past, so long as they are certain that it's the past, and won't rear its head again. Also, making connections with professors that are connected to econ programs will be a HUGE help. Best of luck.

07-19-2006, 05:23 PM	#5 (permalink)
notacolour TestMagic Guru-in-Training Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 630	I was thinking the other day about how this undergrad/grad coursework dichotomy isn't all that different in econ than in, say, english programs. Undergrads decide to major in english because they love literature, they have profs that inspire them to want to spend the rest of their lives studying Milton or Fitzgerald or Kristeva. Then they hit grad school, and suddenly everything is lit theory, gender theory, socialist theory, theory, theory. Econ isn't all that different. Most undergrads get inspired to major in econ because they love macro and want to become the next Greenspan, or they love applied game theory, or they really enjoy seeing how little graphs interact and move around as market forces act, or whatever. Most undergrads barely have to worry about math. Maybe some calculus, but never proving the concavity of indifference curves or proving decreasing returns to scale under a particular theoretical model or whatever. All that stuff hits in grad school, and it can be a rude awakening. So part of addressing this is having a firm mathematical background, but that doesn't mean that you can take the math as a given and worry about the "economic aspects," since economic aspects are a minor issue at least until you pass the core courses. Most of your graduate courses won't be about figuring out how to address economic problems, because you'll be trained to worry about proving the underlying theoretical basis of any strategy, first and foremost. One big difference I see between econ and other fields is that in econ, you aren't cast out of academia for wanting to apply your knowledge once you get out of grad school. In English, if you want to study literature but not be heavily into theory, you're almost certainly not going to do well in academia. In econ, the majority of academics see theory as a tool, not an end, even though almost all of them went through grad programs that were almost exclusively oriented towards greater theoretical knowledge at the expense of any application. Several profs I've spoken to have suggested that this is often due to the fact that theory people tend to teach the core, but I've already written more than enough. At any rate, this seems to be a major reason why people drop out of econ programs. I would strongly encourage people to gain a greater understanding of what, exactly, graduate study entails before undertaking it. Definitely go read MWG, for example. And if that's not what you want to spend years on, there are many other programs that may be more up your alley--public policy, or urban planning (which I have considered myself, more than a few times...), business PhD...

07-19-2006, 07:23 PM	#6 (permalink)
b82rez Eager! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 35	notacolour: thanks for the response I have thought for awhile that schooling mostly teaches theory while it is up to the individual to applicate what is taught. Obviously theories discussed within class will not fully function in the real-world, but it is a tool to help one "out there"... As far as taking math "as a given"...I was referring to the "minimum requirements" schools often have for PhD programs in Economics. They often say at least one year of calc,linear algebra, semester of statistics...After reading this forum I have come to conclude that by going into grad school with much more than that would greatly enhance one's ability to understand the material being thrown at them for their core courses. Meaning, maybe I would be able to follow why certain mathematical theorems are used instead of worrying about the proper way to calculate some problem based on formula memorization (am i making sense?). This is why I was suggesting taking the Math courses throught MA program so I know if I can infact handle the math. Also, perhaps I would be able to substitute some graduate econ classes in place of some public policy classes to get a feel. Basically, I am just wondering if this is a proper idea given my poor undergraduate career. And also, would excelling at Rutgers be good enought to get me into a top 10 school for PhD? Their public policy program does look packed with analytical courses and I know there are many well-respected faculty members there..

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