Loser's tale: Low CGPA and a dream

[ulala099]

Hi,
I spoiled my life for entertainment, music and other stuffs and didn't realize the true meaning and requirement of CGPA. I am good in understanding computer science but was never been better to get the better GPA. In fact didn't care. So, in the edge of my BS I see my CGPA as low as ~2.5.

I always had good feelings for computer science. To say I love it and I want to continue on it. But now I see the great graduate schools want CGPA more than 3.0, which is far away from me now.

So, I am serious now and want to fight back towards my dream MS on CS. I have very good knowledge on my subject and I have worked on several projects including embedded systems, java, php etc.

The MAIN QUESTION is - if I fight for a very good GRE CS subject test score and GRE general test then will it be enough to get chance in the ranked (even if in the top 100) graduate schools???

Or should I start retaking courses in my BS program to make the CGPA 3.0? Does it help anyway?

Or Should I start doing some research sort of stuffs and try to publish it in ACM or IEEE? Does it increase the chance to at least review my application?

Or finally I should stop dreaming and stay illiterate and do the engineers job in some companies?Are all my hopes gone forever to do MS and PhD?

Please help me out and suggest me better solutions. Your suggestion and real life experience will help me to choose the right track. Also recent success story of the losers like me will motivate me to work real hard (I mean it) for GRE score or other stuffs required.

Thanks in advance.

[CalmLogic]

Some initial thoughts:

My initial impression is that I wouldn't retake courses unless I got a "D" in an important course like data structures and algorithms. This is partly based on the assumption that your college transcript will show grades for each time you take the same course. Personally, I would rather take additional CS courses and CS electives that I had not taken before.

Regarding the Subject Test, scoring well on the GRE Subject Exam may actually, in some cases, be more difficult than having research accepted by a conference or journal.

Regarding minimum GPA requirements, here are my thoughts from another post:

Most graduate schools require at least a 3.0 GPA for a certain group of courses. If the graduate school (not just the department) has a strict requirement regarding GPA, then I think it's safe to assume that the computer science department will rarely accept anyone with a GPA lower than that.

However, you could contact the schools you are interested in to see what their exact policy is regarding minimum GPAs for international students. I would be concerned about GPA as a minimum requirement more than anything else:

http://www.urch.com/forums/gre-compu...tml#post512045 (gre computer science)

Some questions I have:
- When do you complete your BS degree?
- Why do you want a graduate degree, anyway? Does the graduate degree have to be in computer science per se? There are more specific MS degrees in software engineering, information systems, information technology, information science, networking, data mining, and even artificial intelligence. In other words, what are your career goals?

[ulala099]

Hi agian,
Thanks a lot for your reply.

I am supposed to graduate in next july. My thought was to attend in MS in the next september 2008 session.

I need graduate degree for.... well... several reasons are there... what I see and what experienced people say around me.... career path will not be smooth but will be narrowed down without higher degrees... Companies will pay but stop your promotion... You will see your 5/7 years huge experience will lose to an MS with 3 years experience or a PhD with no experience...You understand what I mean... don't you?

Now I am interested in VLSI and integrated circuit ... Although those courses are very poor in my present university, but I learned those and still learning by myself. I am also very interested in embedded device and always had intention to build a career path on embedded system design.

Now should I stop my learning here after BS ??and start working in any comapny? Or, should I try for MS any way or any other way around?

Does IEEE papers help to cover up BS GPA? Or can any well known professor of my desired graduate university can help me out?

FINALLY, even if needed, can I do BS on either compauter science or other engineering subject in any high ranked university? Will they accept me? If they do, ten I would rather have another BS to continue on the learning track. This time I can assure of a very good CGPA.

(I am 22 now and I think I have enough age to complete another BS 2/3 years and with PhD within 30)

Please help me out.!!

[CalmLogic]

I am supposed to graduate in next july. My thought was to attend in MS in the next september 2008 session.

Most CS graduate programs -- at least those in the top 100 -- have application deadlines between November and January for international students:

Most CS graduate programs primarily accept applications in the fall. Most have an application deadline somewhere between mid December and mid January. Acceptance notifications usually get sent out sometime between early February and early March, though departments vary in this. Rejections tend to get sent out towards the end of the process. Calling or emailing a department to find out the status of your application generally will not work. (Almost) all U.S. graduate departments abide by an agreement that places the deadline of April 15 for your decision to accept or reject their offer of admission.

Graduate School in CS

So, for most schools, taking the GRE CS exam in April will not be helpful for applying for the Fall 2008 semester, which is why the April exam is the least popular.

UT Dallas has a later application deadline, which is May 1st for international students.

A lower ranking school, however, with an extremely late application deadline:

M.S. in Computer Science - Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan
M.S. in Embedded Systems - Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan

There are also schools that offer admission on a "rolling basis (Please suggest some Universities..)," and there are often later deadlines for applications in which financial aid is not a consideration.

Now should I stop my learning here after BS ??and start working in any comapny? Or, should I try for MS any way or any other way around?

Even with an MS as an eventual goal, most people will start working after getting their BS, especially if their interest is in the more popular and experience-based job areas like software development and IT. Work experience also helps increase the chances of being admitted to an MS program.

Another related issue is funding. You would likely need to pay for at least the first year of tuition since your chances of getting a TA position are minimal, at least during the initial semester(s). Even people with PhD-level profiles who apply to MS programs usually don't funding for the first semester.

Another option is distance learning (Please evaluate my profile) on a part-time basis while working full-time.

what I see and what experienced people say around me.... career path will not be smooth but will be narrowed down without higher degrees... Companies will pay but stop your promotion... You will see your 5/7 years huge experience will lose to an MS with 3 years experience or a PhD with no experience...You understand what I mean... don't you?

It all depends on the type of job. You will likely get a good impression by reading job ads.

For most jobs in the IT industry, job experience is most important. BTW, as you may know, it's the IT jobs that are the "hot jobs" for H1B visas, if that is something you are interested in. A job in embedded systems per se does not look very H1B friendly, if that is an issue for you:

All h1b jobs | Indeed.com
All h1b embedded jobs | Indeed.com
All h1b vlsi jobs | Indeed.com

Does IEEE papers help to cover up BS GPA? Or can any well known professor of my desired graduate university can help me out?

Certainly, you should be trying to talk to your professors anyway about how you can chip in since most graduate programs require letters of recommendation.

Regarding research vs. GPA vs. GRECS, I would focus more on getting the best grades you can since there are minimum requirements regarding GPA for graduate school. I would assume you have an undergraduate advisor at your school that could provide some helpful advice on improving your GPA and maybe some career advice as well.

Also, you may have an easier time getting admitted at something like Florida Atlantic University, which does not have a minimum GPA requirement for the courses in your CS major. They only have a graduate school requirement of getting a 3.0 GPA in the last 60 credits of undergraduate work:

FAU, Computer Science & Engineering Admission Requirements for M.S. in Computer Engineering
FAU, Computer Science & Engineering Admission Requirements for M.S. in Computer Science

And, lastly, there is always the bastion of conditional or provisional admission:

Students with a grade point average of 2.75 can be considered for Conditional Admission.

....However, students with a Conditional Admission can not receive a graduate appointment.

KSU Department of Computer Science: Prospective Students

Some of them say "3.0" but they do offer provisional admission.
I think for engineering students, a excellent Q score ( say, 800) might be helpful.

http://www.urch.com/forums/graduate-...uate-gp-2.html (Can a decent GRE score compensate for a bad Undergraduate GP)

But, to my knowledge, none of the universities I have mentioned like FAU and KSU are in the top 100, except for UT Dallas. UT Dallas -- often considered a safety school by those with good profiles -- requires a 3.3 GPA in quantitative courses and a 3.0 GPA in the last 60 credits of work:

UT Dallas Computer Science – Admissions

(I don't exactly know what UT Dallas means by "quantitative courses." For example, could a CS course in database management be included? So talking to someone at UT Dallas like a graduate advisor would be the only way to know for sure. Another question one could have is if taking a couple graduate courses via distance learning from a US university could apply to the GPA calculation.)

[ulala099]

Ah ! it's really being helpful to me!!

THANKS a lot CalmLogic for being with me!! I would have never known many things what I have learned from you. For example "conditional or provisional admission".

Please tell me few more things. This time I will ask in more organized way. I want to do MS in the top 100 ranked universities anyway. And now I am so desperate that I can do anything for that. What I have in my hand are-

1. to work 24 hours for high GRE score
2. to work 24 hours for high GRE CS score
3. Request my professors and start working in IEEE papers. (I can manage)

Now my questions are-

1. Can I request for doing required core courses or doing complete BS in the top ranked universities again? So, that I can later manage very good grades and get accepted for MS? Is there any system like that? If there is then what is it call?

2. Is there any chance to join any of the top ranked universities for another major in other engineering subject (for example Electrical engineering or others) in my present condition? Do they accept this sort of case? If they do then what I need to do??SAT1 and SAT2 ? or my GRE score will be enough?

I got no answer to the questions above in the university websites. Your replies are being very helpful to me. Please show me the right track..

Thanks once again.

[CalmLogic]

g

Can I request for doing required core courses or doing complete BS in the top ranked universities again?

What you wrote is a little unclear.

Certainly, for now, your number one priority should be doing well on the courses you are currently taking in order to improve your GPA.

Perhaps you saying that you are wondering about taking some CS courses at a top school as a way to improve your transcript/profile prior to applying for an MS? In any case, I would ask a CS graduate advisor at UT Dallas, the University of Houston, etc. Certainly, they would have a much better idea of how your GPA would be evaluated than I would since they are more aware of their department's policies.

Is there any chance to join any of the top ranked universities for another major in other engineering subject (for example Electrical engineering or others) in my present condition?

I thought your dream was computer science or computer engineering, not electrical engineering

As a search on Google will show you, you would need to take prerequisite courses for an MS degree in electrical engineering since your BS is in computer science, not electrical engineering.

Regardless, you would still have the same GPA requirements to worry about that are set by the graduate school of the university.

[wahl]

1) Well, many of the larger universities offer courses to non-degree students: any and all comers with enough $$$. For example, Harvard's Extension School offers classes, but you would have to pay ~$1700/class if you hoped to get graduate credit for it. (More than I pay in a whole semester for my undergrad courses, but if you're desperate...)

2) I think I know what you're saying, but I don't think there is any way to transfer into top schools (at the BS level) once you've received your degree. In fact, it's nigh impossible to transfer in at all. And MS programs are also competitive, though not as bad as Ph.D.

But really, if I were you I would try to get a job working in a lab at one of your target schools. I guess I don't know with computer engineering, but in biology, there are technician jobs or assistantships available, and if you make an impression on your boss (a prof, obviously), he/she could help you get into the program the next year. Also, if you work on campus they will probably let you audit classes for free if you ask nicely, which is another chance to impress profs there... Well, you see what I'm saying.

[gautam88]

1) You said u'll graduate July 2008. A lot of college admission sites I've been to, say, they'll consider ur Junior and Senior year courses to calculate ur GPA (as most courses in your major are taken then, as opposed to broading electives in the first two). If you do well this fall and next spring, maybe the avg of this and ur junior year, could bring up your GPA. Also, many look at the GPA in your major. So if you've done well in CS courses, and not electives, this could also help you. However, most univ. will still look at the overall GPA, but you can use ur GPA-Major to offset the bad overall one.


2) Taking stupid / easy / totally unrelated courses in your senior year, would just show ur desperation to increase ur GPA, and i'm sure the admissions committe would just neglect that effort.

3) This is what I recommend: Graduate with best effort. Look for a college in your area (if it's a good academic center), or look for a job in one of the major academic centers, like boston, NY, chicago, southern cal etc, and try getting atleast a year or 2 of work-ex. Then, go to a good grad school, preferably one you'd like to attend, and register for some grad courses as a Non-Degree student. Usually, univs. don't have issues with ur GPA, and pre-reqs, even though they ask your to submit a similar app. for regular admission, ask for your previous transcripts etc... It's going to be fully paid for by you, so it'll be better if you looked into state univs. to get these credits. Then all you gotta do is score A+ in these courses, and if you apply to this grad school next year, you can strongly advocate your case, as you've excelled @ their univ. Considering your profile at this time, i think this is a fairly good option. You'll also have done amazing well (i hope so), at your workplace, and u'll be able to manage a good reco from your boss there too. Plus more live projects to boast , and another way to prove that u've matured after graduating when you picked the job, cause now u're on your own, and mom dad won't pay any bills... etc....Essay stuff has to be good. Thats ur best bet.

If i can think of anything more, I'll surely chip in ... But let me tell you something. Don't be depressed and feel wasted. My profile is 10 times worse than yours (dropped out from college, and got my degree eventually after 7 years), and I'm still hopeful. Never lose hope, or this life is pointless.

All that matters is, your presentation of who you really are. If you think your are smart and deserving, then that's what you've got to get across. Admissions committes' want smart research oriented candidates for grad programs, not 4.0's who just mugged their texts and licked their profs.


Think lawyers: their job is to put everything into context, and to win the case, regardless. Sometimes you gotta think like an advocate, cause you gotta win this admissions battle. Nevermind if you lose this time, you'll try again, with a stronger profile.

[CalmLogic]

Originally Posted by wahl

Well, many of the larger universities offer courses to non-degree students: any and all comers with enough $$$. For example, Harvard's Extension School offers classes, but you would have to pay ~$1700/class if you hoped to get graduate credit for it.

On a related note, my guess is that at least some graduate schools will factor in graduate work completed after the BS as part of the GPA calculation. The following excerpt may lead credence to this supposition:

...3.0 or better (on a 4.00 scale) for the final 60 semester credit hours of undergraduate and/or graduate courses.

Chicago State University

Regarding Harvard's Extension School, they offer a mostly online MA in Information Technology program. For admission to this master's program, Harvard's Extension school doesn't care what your GPA was as an undergraduate, as long you do well on the first 3 graduate courses. Harvard Exention's online courses are competitively priced, especially compared to UIUC, which is even more expensive (but more prestigious in CS), with UIUC's online tuition costing over $3,200 for a 4-credit online course. My impression is that, at least for the UIUC program, American IT workers take such expensive online courses largely because their employer pays for the tuition.

Originally Posted by wahl

I think I know what you're saying, but I don't think there is any way to transfer into top schools (at the BS level) once you've received your degree.

Very true. Almost all undergraduate programs have residency requirements that require a large number of courses to be earned from the university.

Originally Posted by gautam88

If you do well this fall and next spring, maybe the avg of this and ur junior year, could bring up your GPA.

Yeah, most graduate schools (not the CS departments, but the graduate schools) look at the last 60 credits, rather than the GPA of your major. Also, I just read that the University of Utah graduate school will consider one of two different GPAs, whichever meets the requirements:

An undergraduate grade point average of at least 3.00 based on all undergraduate work. If the undergraduate GPA is below 3.00, a GPA will be calculated on the last 60 semester or 90 quarter hours of the undergraduate work for admission consideration.

The University of Utah - Admissions

Originally Posted by gautam88

You'll also have done amazing well (i hope so), at your workplace, and u'll be able to manage a good reco from your boss there too. Plus more live projects to boast , and another way to prove that u've matured after graduating when you picked the job, cause now u're on your own, and mom dad won't pay any bills... etc....Essay stuff has to be good. Thats ur best bet.

Definitely agree. A couple additional arguments for going to work and gaining more experience first:

1) You will have a better idea of your interests in CS, e.g. what electives you want to take. At many MS programs, at least half the courses are CS electives, and, similarly, many CS programs offer different areas of concentration.

Similarly:

Originally Posted by beanfootage

I've been out of school for a couple of years since undergrad. Best decision I ever made. If this doesn't work out, taking some time off is not a bad choice. I'm much more directed now, and aware of what I want to do, and more importantly, what I don't want to do. I've spoken with several other people who've done the same, and they tend to feel similarly. Don't go somewhere you won't be happy just to go. Trying again next year, or in two years, may well turn out for the best.

http://www.urch.com/forums/admission...s-results.html (Bioinformatics / Computational Biology / Genomics results?)

2) You will be more able to relate the CS theory to real-world examples.

3) If you prefer, you can take courses part-time via distance learning while working full-time.

4) At least in the US, people tend to change their careers at least several times during their lifetime. One may decide that being an actuary or even a librarian is more personally rewarding with less stress than one's current line of work. For example, well-paid IT workers generally have lower job satisfaction than relatively poorly paid hair stylists:

Why Hairdressers Are Among Happiest Workers - UK News Headlines

5) Education without experience is not attractive. The fact that students gladly apply for internships is because employers place so much emphasis on experience.

Originally Posted by ulala099

I spoiled my life for entertainment, music and other stuffs and didn't realize the true meaning and requirement of CGPA

Just consider that time as valuable, observational research in new media

[CalmLogic]

BTW, the following suggests that at least some graduate schools have the following policy regarding GPA calculation:

We do not consider classes which you took after your bachelor’s degree was earned when calculating your GPA.

UCF Graduate Studies

So it seems advantageous to continue taking courses as part of the same B.S. program until one's GPA meets the requirements.

Also, this may be relevant for the majority of graduate school programs:

How do I figure my grade point average (GPA) when applying to graduate school?
Count 60 semester (90 quarter) hours backward from your graduation semester (quarter). If the 60 semester (90 quarter) hours falls in the middle of a semester, use the entire semester. You may use more than 60 semester (90 quarter) hours, but no less than 57 (87). Grades are calculated on the following scale: A=4, A- =3.75, B+=3.25, B=3, B- =2.75, C+=2.25, C=2, C- =1.75, D+=1.25, D=1, D- =.75, F=0, I=0.


If the credit hour calculation includes S (Satisfactory) or P (Pass) grades, subtract their hourly count from the total hours (once you’ve reached the required 60 semester or 90 quarter hours). For example: you counted 60 semester hours and there are 6 hours of S grades. Subtract the 6 hours from the 60 hours, and the resulting number 54 is your total credit hours to be used in the GPA calculation. The following grades are skipped completely and not included in the GPA calculation: W (Withdrawn), WP (Withdrawn Passing), WF (Withdrawn Failing), NC (No Credit), AU (Audit), U (Unsatisfactory), and CR (Credit only). If there is grade forgiveness, both grades are used.

Multiply the points assigned to a grade (A=4, B=3, etc) by the number of credit hours assigned to that grade for each grade in the 60 semester (90 quarter) hours to obtain the quality grade points. Divide the total quality grade points by the total number of semester (quarter) credit hours to figure the GPA.

UCF Graduate Studies