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wasleys · 06-17-2005, 08:44 PM

OK, so I'm in a bad mood, but I'm getting increasingly pigged off with people using abbreviations when posting questions and answers. It is difficult enough for a fluent speaker to understand them, heaven knows how people who are learning the language cope. If these boards are here to help people learn English surely we should ensure that, within their capabilities, they use a recognised - and recognisable - form of the language. Apart from clarity it would set a good example.

Can we get some moderation on this?

What do others think?

My comments only apply to the 'technical' areas and exclude 'social' forums like this (but it still pigs me off here - well, I said I was in a bad mood).

Michael

bnm · 06-17-2005, 09:05 PM

Hey,
I think Erin discussed this thing before also. Its good that people use and express themselves fully. But i think abbrevations like BTW, ASAP and IMHO are commonly used all over the internet.
Chill.

wasleys · 06-17-2005, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnm

Hey,
I think Erin discussed this thing before also. Its good that people use and express themselves fully. But i think abbrevations like BTW, ASAP and IMHO are commonly used all over the internet.
Chill.

bnm,

Those don't worry me as much as things like ne1, 4, u, thx and so on.

EDIT: Then there's: ur, abt, plz, y, xplain, thankx.

(BTW, BTW and IMHO are often, IMHO, superfluous.)

Michael

**Erin** · 06-17-2005, 09:30 PM

LOL, make "TM" an AFZ.

And yes, we've discussed this before. I think such abbreviations as IMHO, LOL, BTW, etc. are fine. I use them a lot myself. And there are some that have become specific to the Internet, such as n00b and pwned. But such Internet slang as ur (your/you're), wat (what), cud (could), etc. are a bit too useless for me, and I just can't get used to them, no matter what.

In defense of these abbreviations, some people have said that they use these abbreviations because they don't type fast, because they're paying for Internet access by the minute, or because they're so used to using them in their text messages.

In any case, I try to take the non-traditional approach (non-traditional for an English teacher, that is) of not correcting others' grammar, unless of course they ask me to. I really don't like those preachy, pedantic types who say such things as if you can't use proper English, then you're not ready for college. Live and let live. If people want to do this (and it surely seems they do), so be it.

That said, I have seen many, many essays posted here on TM that contain such mistakes, which would seem to indicate that some people cannot "code-switch" when they need to. In these cases, I would be more likely to point out the errors. I've had several students in the post who have used Internet English in their real essays, including TOEFL essays and admissions essays. I believe that one of my students in particular was rejected by a competitive school because of this. And I think it would be a courtesy to at least try to use correct language, spelling, and grammar specifically in the grammar and writing forums.

I have added the tooltip tag to help those who need it. Believe me, a lot of people are confused by some of the abbreviations specific to tests, such as OG, OA, etc.

And yes, Michael, you do seem grouchy today.

Sorry about that.

wasleys · 06-17-2005, 10:32 PM

Erin,

What do nOOb and pwned mean? I have never come across them. That in itself proves my point.

Some of your comments deserve challenging.

The point about paying for access time is a cop-out. People can just as easily type in a word-processor then paste a properly corrected version into their browser. It might give them valuable practice. It might also help them get a more useful answer if their question is the more easily understood for making the question easily understandable.

The bit about being used to using the abbreviations in text messages (and it is this which causes me very serious concern) just doesn't stand up. I might be used to using the Lincolnshire vernacular but I don't use it here. The use of texting abbreviations can only cause obfuscation by confusing not only those who have little command of the language (ah - so xplain is how you spell explain) but also those who are fluent (does 4 mean for or four?). I would suggest a duty of care is incumbent on all of us here to do all we can to make posts easily understandable to people with limited command of the language. I would also suggest we have a general responsibilty to bear the readers, not ourselves, in mind when writing. The use of proper English will help with both of those.

The decision whether or not to correct grammar may not be as clear cut as you imply. In many cases I would consider it both unnecessary and rude to correct the English of a foreigner trying his best to communicate with me. However I have found that in some cases such correction is actively welcomed as they are using me to practise their English. Also in answering a post here I might point out an error if I feel it would be helpful (and I might even use a BTW to do it).

The bit about not being ready for college is a bit of a red herring, but a native English speaker who can't be bothered to use proper English will not be a competent communicator and that may well have implications on their suitability for higher education. What is relevant is that here we are talking about taking the trouble to use a language in its correct form when seeking to improve performance in use of that language. However, as you say, if people want to do it, so be it. The corollary is, of course, that if people don't feel inclined to answer questions from those who can't be bothered to do their best in writing those questions, so be that.

What's a tooltip tag? Is it supposed to do something?

Michael

EOE

**Erin** · 06-17-2005, 11:01 PM

Let me kill two birds with one explanation here:

I created a [tooltip] tag to add explanation to such terms as n00b and pwned. Hover your mouse over the terms that are decorated like this . To do this yourself, just add [tooltip] tags or click the

button. You could also see my signature, but I'm guessing that you have signatures turned off.

As for your other points, you're preaching to the choir; I was merely trying to summarize other views. I'm a bit of a perfectionist myself and must sometimes try hard to reign in my pedantic tendencies.

wasleys · 06-17-2005, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erin

Let me kill two birds with one explanation here:

I created a [tooltip] tag to add explanation to such terms as n00b and pwned. Hover your mouse over the terms that are decorated like this . To do this yourself, just add [tooltip] tags or click the

button. You could also see my signature, but I'm guessing that you have signatures turned off.

As for your other points, you're preaching to the choir; I was merely trying to summarize other views. I'm a bit of a perfectionist myself and must sometimes try hard to reign in my pedantic tendencies.

Erin,

Thanks.

Yes, signatures off, the threads waste enough screen estate even without them (I know, grumping again).

Oddly the tooltip tag on tooltip tag in yout last post didn't work, but does now.

Quote:

As for your other points, you're preaching to the choir

So how about a bit of evangelising?

Michael

armie480 · 06-20-2005, 04:22 AM

I have just come across this thread, and I could not agree more with the points Michael makes!

Quote:

Originally Posted by wasleys

What is relevant is that here we are talking about taking the trouble to use a language in its correct form when seeking to improve performance in use of that language. However, as you say, if people want to do it, so be it. The corollary is, of course, that if people don't feel inclined to answer questions from those who can't be bothered to do their best in writing those questions, so be that.

This is exactly how I think - if people do not take trouble to write in normal English, why should I spend my time figuring out what they mean and answering their questions? I conclude they do not respect my time and do not want my answer. After all, if people seek to improve their knowledge of English, is it too much to expect they would use the language required in Toefl and college papers instead of its weird variations from SMS-messages and chat-rooms?

I wonder if anyone would be able to understand this real message, and if anyone would be willing to answer it:

Quote:

tell me abt this thai have written snd me mail or messag e,hi every
one i have a test abt 1 week ago so plz do me a favour
i havewritten something abt unknown information abt essay which every body can
apply in there sentence believe me this is gonna help a lot in ur essay and but
tell that i use sme in correct use of words so plz
rewrite in ur word with all the correction u think is need in this in formal
essayok here r the point.
well plz post this in all other thread because i dont know how to do it
and plz tell what every body saying abt this informal infromation it is correct
or wrong give me the answer as soon as possible.thankx

If I were able to resolve problems simply by raising them, I would also suggest that people take effort to spell-check when they post grammar questions. Copy-pasting from Word will take a minute, and those attempting to answer questions will not have to guess which of the mistakes is about spelling and which is the 'real' mistake. I do understand this is too much, though..

ps. I am cheerful today.

wasleys · 06-22-2005, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armie480

I wonder if anyone would be able to understand this real message …

armie480,

I loved your example. The abbreviations together with the absence of capitals and almost complete absence of punctuation make the message virually unintelligible. There's even a 'gonna'!

Michael

wasleys · 07-03-2005, 07:29 PM

armie480,

Quite by chance I found this on a BBC website this evening.

You may wish to test your powers of translation.

Michael

06-17-2005, 08:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
wasleys Real ale taster Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Scunthorpe, UK Posts: 1,990	Make TM an abbreviation free zone? OK, so I'm in a bad mood, but I'm getting increasingly pigged off with people using abbreviations when posting questions and answers. It is difficult enough for a fluent speaker to understand them, heaven knows how people who are learning the language cope. If these boards are here to help people learn English surely we should ensure that, within their capabilities, they use a recognised - and recognisable - form of the language. Apart from clarity it would set a good example. Can we get some moderation on this? What do others think? My comments only apply to the 'technical' areas and exclude 'social' forums like this (but it still pigs me off here - well, I said I was in a bad mood). Michael _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ Native English speaker just trying to help people who post using proper English.

06-17-2005, 09:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
bnm blingbling Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: why?r u coming for dinner? plz don't.. Posts: 576	Hey, I think Erin discussed this thing before also. Its good that people use and express themselves fully. But i think abbrevations like BTW, ASAP and IMHO are commonly used all over the internet. Chill. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ ~Creativo Genio~ Econ Fan Club Agente Especial *Testmagic Police Department* I am very mad at people that characterize as stupid/smart other persons/themselves based solely on a stupid and meaningless GRE score. Smartness/Stupidness cannot be judged until you get to know each person in depth, and certainly it cannot be measured by test scores. Other factors, such as organization, perseverence, modesty, responsiveness, honesty, effort, kindness, sincereness, and overall spirit are by far more important in evaluating one's intelligence! *- Econ*

06-17-2005, 09:30 PM	#4 (permalink)
Erin So many things to do... Forum Admin Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: USA Posts: 8,213	On Internet slang LOL, make "TM" an AFZ. And yes, we've discussed this before. I think such abbreviations as IMHO, LOL, BTW, etc. are fine. I use them a lot myself. And there are some that have become specific to the Internet, such as n00b and pwned. But such Internet slang as ur (your/you're), wat (what), cud (could), etc. are a bit too useless for me, and I just can't get used to them, no matter what. In defense of these abbreviations, some people have said that they use these abbreviations because they don't type fast, because they're paying for Internet access by the minute, or because they're so used to using them in their text messages. In any case, I try to take the non-traditional approach (non-traditional for an English teacher, that is) of not correcting others' grammar, unless of course they ask me to. I really don't like those preachy, pedantic types who say such things as if you can't use proper English, then you're not ready for college. Live and let live. If people want to do this (and it surely seems they do), so be it. That said, I have seen many, many essays posted here on TM that contain such mistakes, which would seem to indicate that some people cannot "code-switch" when they need to. In these cases, I would be more likely to point out the errors. I've had several students in the post who have used Internet English in their real essays, including TOEFL essays and admissions essays. I believe that one of my students in particular was rejected by a competitive school because of this. And I think it would be a courtesy to at least try to use correct language, spelling, and grammar specifically in the grammar and writing forums. I have added the tooltip tag to help those who need it. Believe me, a lot of people are confused by some of the abbreviations specific to tests, such as OG, OA, etc. And yes, Michael, you do seem grouchy today. Sorry about that. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ [Say 'hi'!] [Google Interviews Erin] [San Francisco Chronicle Interviews Erin]

06-17-2005, 10:32 PM	#5 (permalink)
wasleys Real ale taster Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Scunthorpe, UK Posts: 1,990	Erin, What do nOOb and pwned mean? I have never come across them. That in itself proves my point. Some of your comments deserve challenging. The point about paying for access time is a cop-out. People can just as easily type in a word-processor then paste a properly corrected version into their browser. It might give them valuable practice. It might also help them get a more useful answer if their question is the more easily understood for making the question easily understandable. The bit about being used to using the abbreviations in text messages (and it is this which causes me very serious concern) just doesn't stand up. I might be used to using the Lincolnshire vernacular but I don't use it here. The use of texting abbreviations can only cause obfuscation by confusing not only those who have little command of the language (ah - so xplain is how you spell explain) but also those who are fluent (does 4 mean for or four?). I would suggest a duty of care is incumbent on all of us here to do all we can to make posts easily understandable to people with limited command of the language. I would also suggest we have a general responsibilty to bear the readers, not ourselves, in mind when writing. The use of proper English will help with both of those. The decision whether or not to correct grammar may not be as clear cut as you imply. In many cases I would consider it both unnecessary and rude to correct the English of a foreigner trying his best to communicate with me. However I have found that in some cases such correction is actively welcomed as they are using me to practise their English. Also in answering a post here I might point out an error if I feel it would be helpful (and I might even use a BTW to do it). The bit about not being ready for college is a bit of a red herring, but a native English speaker who can't be bothered to use proper English will not be a competent communicator and that may well have implications on their suitability for higher education. What is relevant is that here we are talking about taking the trouble to use a language in its correct form when seeking to improve performance in use of that language. However, as you say, if people want to do it, so be it. The corollary is, of course, that if people don't feel inclined to answer questions from those who can't be bothered to do their best in writing those questions, so be that. What's a tooltip tag? Is it supposed to do something? Michael EOE _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ Native English speaker just trying to help people who post using proper English.

06-17-2005, 11:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
Erin So many things to do... Forum Admin Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: USA Posts: 8,213	The tooltip tag Let me kill two birds with one explanation here: I created a [tooltip] tag to add explanation to such terms as n00b and pwned. Hover your mouse over the terms that are decorated like this . To do this yourself, just add [tooltip] tags or click the button. You could also see my signature, but I'm guessing that you have signatures turned off. As for your other points, you're preaching to the choir; I was merely trying to summarize other views. I'm a bit of a perfectionist myself and must sometimes try hard to reign in my pedantic tendencies. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ [Say 'hi'!] [Google Interviews Erin] [San Francisco Chronicle Interviews Erin]

07-03-2005, 07:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
wasleys Real ale taster Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Scunthorpe, UK Posts: 1,990	armie480, Quite by chance I found this on a BBC website this evening. You may wish to test your powers of translation. Michael _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ Native English speaker just trying to help people who post using proper English.

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