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knok · 05-31-2007, 11:05 PM

I don't think that NABP will take the total score of 90 because I talked to the person who was in charge of the regulations for foreign pharmacists about the TSE or TOEFL iBT of NABP in 2005. NABP has tried to show the public that NABP has a requirement for the speaking test.

NABP mentioned that many people received a very high score on TOEFL-CBT but they could not speak English well and were forced to quit their jobs. NABP would like to make sure that pharmacists can communicate by speaking well and being understandable by native speakers.

The first one was on the petition. The second one, I wrote but my tutor disagreed about the total score of 90. NABP was consisted of Pharmacy State Board members. They want to avoid lawsuits. NABP adopted the test of spoken English the first time in 1996 or 1997. Before that, there were a lot of complaint saying that patients could not understand foreign pharmacists.

Therefore, the requirement for speaking test will be there forever.

emac · 06-01-2007, 04:46 AM

knok,
Knowing that I think on the NABP letter we should focus only in reduce the score requirements for the speaking section and the possibility to have more than one Test to measure language skills. More than that should be unrealistic and very ambitious.

On the side of ETS, we should focus on make them to rethink the format of the Test, to enhance the conditions at the Test Centers and make the score rubric more flexible.

emac · 06-01-2007, 05:07 AM

Knok,

One more quote about the lawsuit because of the language missunderstandings. Do not believe 100% on what they say, that is a vague excuse they always quote to stop us. I live in a community where the 80% of the population speaks Spanish and English is like a 2nd language for us. You wouldn't believe your ears listening more than 100 times daily: I need translation in lane 101, or in the consultation window, because the Pharmacist on duty is a native or a foreigner that does not speak spanish at all. So I say to NABP, what happen in that situation? Let the companies and hospitals that hire the pharmacists to decide what language they need the pharmacist to manage better according with their communities needs. I am quite sure that the same happens in a lot of others communities within U.S.

knok · 06-01-2007, 06:16 PM

Emac,

Thank you very much for your message. It is a good point to say.

I don't blame NABP because it is pressured from public to set the English requirement.

Anything we explain to NABP, it will explain to the public. I talked to the person who was in charge with the English test in 2005, he listened and tried to help us. However, he could not violate the policy of making sure that pharmacists can communicate.

I think that we get a valid and solid point for now. By this weekend, we should see the first draft of the petition.
Everyone is working during the weekdays. The people who are editing the letter are busy with their jobs.

Knok

knok · 06-01-2007, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emac

Knok,

I need translation in lane 101, or in the consultation window, because the Pharmacist on duty is a native or a foreigner that does not speak spanish at all. So I say to NABP, what happen in that situation?

Let the companies and hospitals that hire the pharmacists to decide what language they need the pharmacist to manage better according with their communities needs. I am quite sure that the same happens in a lot of others communities within U.S.

Yes, it can be said that English is not an official language of the United States. Why does NABP set the language requirement too high? The companies should decide what language the communities need. Good point.

tobeekulit · 06-01-2007, 11:26 PM

Knok,

This is the first time that I came across this message board. I am also in the same situation. I feel that the TOEF iBT requirements of the NABP is too high and so ambitious. I already took the TOEFL iBT for SIX times and during those SIX times I had to retake the test again because I wasn't able to meet the speaking score requirement of 26.

The highest score I got for the speaking part is 24 ( my average score is 23 ). It is so frustrating that I had to retake the whole 5 hour exam just to pass the speaking part which takes no more that 20 minutes. I thought that I was the only one with this situiation. I tried to write the NABP regarding their high score requirements, but I thought that maybe it was just me and there is nothing wrong with the system. Honestly, after taking my sixth exam and not meeting the speaking requirement made me think if I should still retake the exam. I feel that a score of 26 is TOO HIGH specialy if Non Native English Speakers. Reading your message board is really a huge morale booster for me. I would gladly join as a petitioner in the complaint.

I think that NABP speaking score requirement of 26 is too HIGH. I think that NABP should take the TOEFL iBT score in totality, an average of the 4 parts. That is what other Licensing agency requires, like the CGFNS (Commision on Graduates of Foreign Nursing Schools) which is only 83 for the TOEFL iBT. Here is their link http://www.cgfns.org/files/pdf/req/cp-requirements.pdf. I had a total score of 103/120 but was only able to achieve a score of 24/30 in the speaking part; Does this mean that my skills of the English Language in not proficient?!

ETS has only a limited slot for the TOEFL iBT exam, in my area the next available exam date would be After August 2007. I think NABP Should also consider IELTS ( International English Language Testing System) in assessing a candidates proficiency of the English Language.

I just hope that NABP would reconsider their English Language proficiency requirement !

knok · 06-02-2007, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tobeekulit

Knok,

The highest score I got for the speaking part is 24 ( my average score is 23 ). It is so frustrating that I had to retake the whole 5 hour exam just to pass the speaking part which takes no more that 20 minutes. I thought that I was the only one with this situiation. I

I feel that a score of 26 is TOO HIGH specialy if Non Native English Speakers.

I think that NABP should take the TOEFL iBT score in totality, an average of the 4 parts. That is what other Licensing agency requires, like the CGFNS (Commision on Graduates of Foreign Nursing Schools) which is only 83 for the TOEFL iBT. Here is their link http://www.cgfns.org/files/pdf/req/cp-requirements.pdf. I had a total score of 103/120 but was only able to achieve a score of 24/30 in the speaking part; Does this mean that my skills of the English Language in not proficient?!

ETS has only a limited slot for the TOEFL iBT exam, in my area the next available exam date would be After August 2007. I think NABP Should also consider IELTS ( International English Language Testing System) in assessing a candidates proficiency of the English Language.

I just hope that NABP would reconsider their English Language proficiency requirement !

The link to CGSNF is good. I haven't checked it since 2005, which we sent this link to NABP.

In the past, it said that it required a 50 on the TSE. Now, CGSNF does not consider by part. It considers a total score instead. Good information. Thanks.

Let me check the physician board again.

If anyone has good information, don't hesitate to post it as soon as possible.

I am sure that this time, something must be changed. I just got a letter from NJ attorney today. I know the address and department of NJ attorney to contact about this issue. It suggested me to send the complaint to the address given. I will post it later when we finish the final draft. It is too much. We can't take this anymore. I took TOEFL iBT 10 times. My highest score is 23 on the speaking section. I requested for rescoring. My score was changed to 19. It is really frustrating. I do not do this for myself. I just want to do it for the sake of foreign pharmacists as a whole who must have gone through the ETS system...Abusive Monopoly.

I showed my American neighbor the data that the average score of candidates whose native country is the United States is 22. He laughed and told me to call K-5 news. There is a department to boardcast something like this. This is good for K-5 news..ha..ha..

I was sad enough and now I do not feel anything and am ready to go home but before I go home, I want to change something that makes me feel that,

" I am in America. This is America. You must speak out.

This country is the best of the world because your voices will be heard.
It is called,"Freedom of speech".

NABP repeated to me many times in 2005 when I talked to the person in charge with the TSE that your voices would be heard. Don't worry."

Remember that NABP members are also our fellow pharmacists, not the enemy. We have the same occupation.

Knok

tobeekulit · 06-02-2007, 05:14 AM

Knok,

I came across this article released by ETS in their July 2006 R & D Connections. It talks about the reliability of sub-scores versus a Total score in measuring a students performace .I'm not sure if it's worth quoting but it could help in our plea.

Here is the link - http://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pd...nnections4.pdf

Please keep me posted. I'm really into this appeal of having NABP change their policy.

Thanks

Tobeekulit

knok · 06-02-2007, 06:32 AM

I just read the article. It seems that the paragraph before conclusion, it says about using subscores should be notified that there is high correlation between listening and reading ability. I am not quite sure I understand it.

knok · 06-02-2007, 06:17 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOEFL#Criticism
Quote:

"Criticism

TOEFL, like many standardized tests, has come under increasing scrutiny as a measure of the ability to use English effectively. There is an increasing number of major English speaking universities that now only accept alternate tests[citation needed]or their own test as a measure of whether a student will be capable of using English in an academic milieu.

Some of its weaknesses:
Because English exhibits some orthographic patterns (such as the use of -ing on the end of many verbs), test takers can be taught strategies to look for the patterns without having an understanding of the underlying grammar involved.
Native speakers of English who take the test often find themselves with mediocre results, even in multiple choice questions. Ideally, a test for English proficiency should be simple and straightforward for a native speaker. Instead, such tests often focus on obscure rules of grammar and "proper" uses. For example, the use of "can" and "may" does have a formal rule, but native English speakers not only ignore the formal use on most occasions, they are never confused when another speaker switches the two.
Until 2005, TOEFL did not test the ability to speak English. In most environments, the ability to speak intelligibly and without undue delay is vital. Because TOEFL did not measure this, learners may neglect this part of their education to focus on the skills the test does measure. As a result, many universities request incoming teaching assistants who are not native English speakers to take additional tests (such as the Test of Spoken English or university-administered tests) to ensure their ability to communicate with their students. The TOEFL iBT, which does test speaking skills, attempts to address this issue.

Candidates complain about the TOEFL iBT, mainly because of the high noise level during the speaking section: Everyone is responding orally to six questions at the same time. In addition, the number of seats available is limited (usually filled four months before deadline date)[citation needed]. "

05-31-2007, 11:05 PM	#31 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,100	I don't think that NABP will take the total score of 90 because I talked to the person who was in charge of the regulations for foreign pharmacists about the TSE or TOEFL iBT of NABP in 2005. NABP has tried to show the public that NABP has a requirement for the speaking test. NABP mentioned that many people received a very high score on TOEFL-CBT but they could not speak English well and were forced to quit their jobs. NABP would like to make sure that pharmacists can communicate by speaking well and being understandable by native speakers. The first one was on the petition. The second one, I wrote but my tutor disagreed about the total score of 90. NABP was consisted of Pharmacy State Board members. They want to avoid lawsuits. NABP adopted the test of spoken English the first time in 1996 or 1997. Before that, there were a lot of complaint saying that patients could not understand foreign pharmacists. Therefore, the requirement for speaking test will be there forever. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "I see so much testing in the world, and see how badly most of it is done. I also see the faith many people put in tests and test results, and the consequences for people when test results are used to make decisions about their lives. --Liz Hamp-Lyons (2002)"

06-01-2007, 06:16 PM	#34 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,100	Emac, Thank you very much for your message. It is a good point to say. I don't blame NABP because it is pressured from public to set the English requirement. Anything we explain to NABP, it will explain to the public. I talked to the person who was in charge with the English test in 2005, he listened and tried to help us. However, he could not violate the policy of making sure that pharmacists can communicate. I think that we get a valid and solid point for now. By this weekend, we should see the first draft of the petition. Everyone is working during the weekdays. The people who are editing the letter are busy with their jobs. Knok _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "I see so much testing in the world, and see how badly most of it is done. I also see the faith many people put in tests and test results, and the consequences for people when test results are used to make decisions about their lives. --Liz Hamp-Lyons (2002)"

06-01-2007, 11:26 PM	#36 (permalink)
tobeekulit Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 22	NABP Score Requirements for the TOEFL iBT Knok, This is the first time that I came across this message board. I am also in the same situation. I feel that the TOEF iBT requirements of the NABP is too high and so ambitious. I already took the TOEFL iBT for SIX times and during those SIX times I had to retake the test again because I wasn't able to meet the speaking score requirement of 26. The highest score I got for the speaking part is 24 ( my average score is 23 ). It is so frustrating that I had to retake the whole 5 hour exam just to pass the speaking part which takes no more that 20 minutes. I thought that I was the only one with this situiation. I tried to write the NABP regarding their high score requirements, but I thought that maybe it was just me and there is nothing wrong with the system. Honestly, after taking my sixth exam and not meeting the speaking requirement made me think if I should still retake the exam. I feel that a score of 26 is TOO HIGH specialy if Non Native English Speakers. Reading your message board is really a huge morale booster for me. I would gladly join as a petitioner in the complaint. I think that NABP speaking score requirement of 26 is too HIGH. I think that NABP should take the TOEFL iBT score in totality, an average of the 4 parts. That is what other Licensing agency requires, like the CGFNS (Commision on Graduates of Foreign Nursing Schools) which is only 83 for the TOEFL iBT. Here is their link http://www.cgfns.org/files/pdf/req/cp-requirements.pdf. I had a total score of 103/120 but was only able to achieve a score of 24/30 in the speaking part; Does this mean that my skills of the English Language in not proficient?! ETS has only a limited slot for the TOEFL iBT exam, in my area the next available exam date would be After August 2007. I think NABP Should also consider IELTS ( International English Language Testing System) in assessing a candidates proficiency of the English Language. I just hope that NABP would reconsider their English Language proficiency requirement !

06-02-2007, 05:14 AM	#38 (permalink)
tobeekulit Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 22	ETS R&D Connection Knok, I came across this article released by ETS in their July 2006 R & D Connections. It talks about the reliability of sub-scores versus a Total score in measuring a students performace .I'm not sure if it's worth quoting but it could help in our plea. Here is the link - http://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pd...nnections4.pdf Please keep me posted. I'm really into this appeal of having NABP change their policy. Thanks Tobeekulit

06-02-2007, 06:32 AM	#39 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,100	I just read the article. It seems that the paragraph before conclusion, it says about using subscores should be notified that there is high correlation between listening and reading ability. I am not quite sure I understand it. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "I see so much testing in the world, and see how badly most of it is done. I also see the faith many people put in tests and test results, and the consequences for people when test results are used to make decisions about their lives. --Liz Hamp-Lyons (2002)"

06-01-2007, 04:46 AM	#32 (permalink)
emac Eager! Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 64	knok, Knowing that I think on the NABP letter we should focus only in reduce the score requirements for the speaking section and the possibility to have more than one Test to measure language skills. More than that should be unrealistic and very ambitious. On the side of ETS, we should focus on make them to rethink the format of the Test, to enhance the conditions at the Test Centers and make the score rubric more flexible.

06-01-2007, 05:07 AM	#33 (permalink)
emac Eager! Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 64	Knok, One more quote about the lawsuit because of the language missunderstandings. Do not believe 100% on what they say, that is a vague excuse they always quote to stop us. I live in a community where the 80% of the population speaks Spanish and English is like a 2nd language for us. You wouldn't believe your ears listening more than 100 times daily: I need translation in lane 101, or in the consultation window, because the Pharmacist on duty is a native or a foreigner that does not speak spanish at all. So I say to NABP, what happen in that situation? Let the companies and hospitals that hire the pharmacists to decide what language they need the pharmacist to manage better according with their communities needs. I am quite sure that the same happens in a lot of others communities within U.S.

06-02-2007, 06:17 PM	#40 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,100	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOEFL#Criticism Quote: "Criticism TOEFL, like many standardized tests, has come under increasing scrutiny as a measure of the ability to use English effectively. There is an increasing number of major English speaking universities that now only accept alternate tests[citation needed]or their own test as a measure of whether a student will be capable of using English in an academic milieu. Some of its weaknesses: Because English exhibits some orthographic patterns (such as the use of -ing on the end of many verbs), test takers can be taught strategies to look for the patterns without having an understanding of the underlying grammar involved. Native speakers of English who take the test often find themselves with mediocre results, even in multiple choice questions. Ideally, a test for English proficiency should be simple and straightforward for a native speaker. Instead, such tests often focus on obscure rules of grammar and "proper" uses. For example, the use of "can" and "may" does have a formal rule, but native English speakers not only ignore the formal use on most occasions, they are never confused when another speaker switches the two. Until 2005, TOEFL did not test the ability to speak English. In most environments, the ability to speak intelligibly and without undue delay is vital. Because TOEFL did not measure this, learners may neglect this part of their education to focus on the skills the test does measure. As a result, many universities request incoming teaching assistants who are not native English speakers to take additional tests (such as the Test of Spoken English or university-administered tests) to ensure their ability to communicate with their students. The TOEFL iBT, which does test speaking skills, attempts to address this issue. Candidates complain about the TOEFL iBT, mainly because of the high noise level during the speaking section: Everyone is responding orally to six questions at the same time. In addition, the number of seats available is limited (usually filled four months before deadline date)[citation needed]. " _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "I see so much testing in the world, and see how badly most of it is done. I also see the faith many people put in tests and test results, and the consequences for people when test results are used to make decisions about their lives. --Liz Hamp-Lyons (2002)"

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