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knok · 07-02-2007, 04:43 AM

Hi wish to pass,

We already finished the letters and started to send both of them since last Wednesday. We included what you are mentioning. Please click on the attachment and read both the letters carefully.

Here is the copy of page 3-4 on the first letter, TOEFL iBT Complaint:

"Test takers have 15 seconds to think and 45 seconds to speak. It is really difficult for test takers to think and formulate their thoughts in 15 seconds and organize and speak in 45 seconds, particularly when the questions are not familiar in their daily lives.

For the rest of the questions, candidates are required to summarize the conversations, lectures, and reading provided. In some tests, the topics are too difficult or are not in the interest of test takers. This test is unrealistic for measuring speaking ability of test takers. It is the test that puts more focus on organizing speech in the time limit. ETS mentions on its ETS official guide that test takers may not finish the tasks but can still get a high score and, in the meantime, those who can speak fluently may not get a high score in the Speaking section test if they cannot answer intelligibly and sustainably.

Not surprisingly, after asking many test takers, even though they can speak fluently, most of them are very nervous during the test and cannot finish answering the questions, none of them can get a score higher than 24. ETS informs institutions that a score of 26 is a score that is equal to a score of 50 on the Test of Spoken English (ETS official guide, p. 350). However, a score of 26 on the speaking section of TOEFL iBT is currently a minimum score for professionals to fulfill their requirements for their professional licenses.

According to TOEFL® Test and Score Data Summary for TOEFL Internet-Based Test: September 2005-December 2006 Test Data (ETS, page 9-10), the mean score of the candidates from the United States on the Speaking section of TOEFL iBT was only 22 whereas the mean score of the candidates from countries in which English is their primary language is 23. Even though some of these Americans may not have grown up speaking English in America, it is important to recognize the relatively low score for those who have been in an English speaking country for their entire lives.

This result indicates that the test is invalid and unrealistic in the real world. This test seems to measure intelligibility or other aspects rather than the language ability. This seems to be unfair for test takers when it is obvious that getting a high score on the Speaking section has nothing to do with the ability to speak English fluently. "

In my opinion, anyone who receives 20 on speaking section is able to communicate clearly. We just have problem with topic development. That's why we asked NABP to accept the score of 20 on the speaking section.

We are going to send 2 different letters, TOEFL iBT and Petition to NABP, to State Boards next week, tomorrow. I am searching the addresses and lists of State Boards, House of Representatives, and Senators since they are the group of people who will make changes to legislature of each state.

Please see another thread on, Let's get together all pharmacists.

Knok

knok · 07-10-2007, 04:11 AM

I just want to update. Some of us received a response from Consumer Affairs (TOEFL iBT Complaint). The case will be investigated immediately.

ylynnly · 07-11-2007, 01:29 PM

Hi Knok,
I also received the letter from Ms. Donna Giovannetti today. They said that they will begin to investigate our complaint immediately.
Is there anybody who receive reply letter from NABP up to know?
REgards,
Lynn

emac · 07-11-2007, 03:43 PM

knok and others,
yes I did received the reply letter from Consumer Affairs saying that they are opening an investigation. The earth is moving.

Hope to receive something similar from NABP and the State Boards soon.
emac

knok · 07-11-2007, 06:58 PM

So far, four people received the responses.

tobeekulit · 07-11-2007, 07:23 PM

I also did receieve a response from Ms.Donna Giovannetti, saying that they will begin to investigate our complaint immediately.

allihya · 07-19-2007, 07:48 AM

To Knok, Emac and everyone else who have initiated the petition, thank you very much.

After going through the threads about TOEFL IBT and the petition to NABP, I felt the twinge of the ordeal you'd been through.

I felt like helping you all, but the fact that I haven't taken the test yet gives me no experience as to how it was facilititated here in my country. Very soon or maybe when my FPGEE results ( I hope it's positive) will be out, I will take TOEFL IBT. Well I hope not to go through the same discouraging and dissapointing situation and I hope to pass at once. Maybe then I could be of more help. But please tell me how to help you now, even if I haven't taken the test yet.

God Bless to All!

knok · 07-21-2007, 05:17 AM

Wish to pass,

I moved your discussion to this thread, "Let's ge together to send the complaint" so that we can discuss our concern in the same thread. Please check and read information in that thread. Thanks.

palnatir · 04-23-2008, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knok

Hi everyone,

The letters to NABP are enclosed below. Please see the attached files below.

If you agree with the statement in the letters, please print out the letters, sign your name, put your address and EE number on the heading and the end of the letters.

You need to seperate two envelopes. One is for FPGEC, another is for Competency Assessment Director of NABP.

1. First envelope will be sent to the FPGEC:

1.1 TOEFL iBT Complaint, put your address, sign your name (This letter will be the same for every institution; FPGEC, Competency Assessment Director, State Board of Pharmacy and NJ Consumer Affairs). We send this letter to NABP to let NABP know that we also file the TOEFL iBT Complaint to NJ Consumer Affairs. We also want NABP to see the details of TOEFL iBT problems we are facing.

1.2 TOEFL iBT test center problem-table. Everyone may have different information since we took the tests at different locations.

1.3 Petition to FPGEC with the heading to the FPGEC. This Petition has totally different content from the letter of 1.1 (TOEFL iBT Complaint). Please do not confuse.

1.4 If you have specific information that you want to tell the FPGEC, please write your own letter and put together with this envelope.

1.5 Copies of your TOEFL iBT score reports (2-3 different tests). This will help the FPGEC to see computer generated evaluations which are too general that we all receive the same. The score reports may be printed online.

Address on the first envelope:

The FPGEC
National Association of Boards of Pharmacy
1600 Feehanville Drive
Mount Prospect, IL 60056

2. The second envelope contains:

2.1 TOEFL iBT Complaint , put your address, sign your name. (This letter will be the same in every envelope since we already put (cc) at the end of the letter. We want to let NABP know that our TOEFL iBT complaint is filing to NJ Consumer Affairs.

2.2 TOEFL iBT test center problem-table

2.3 Petition to NABP the heading to Competency Assessment Director (Please observe that we put different heading from 1.3)

2.4 If you have specific information that you want to tell Competency Assessment Director, please write your own letter and put together with this envelope.

2.5 Copies of your TOEFL iBT score reports (2-3 different tests). This will help Competency Assessment Director to see computer generated evaluations which are too general that we all receive the same.

Address on the second envelope:

Competency Assessment Director
National Association of Boards of Pharmacy
1600 Feehanville Drive
Mount Prospect, IL 60056

Thank you very much for your effort and contributions. Decision makers always look at the number of casualties.

By the way, we need to send these letters to the State Boards of Pharmacy as well. Since we live in different states, please see another thread. I am going to write a cover letter to State Board of Pharmacy to let them know why we forward the copies of these letters to them.

Good Luck.

Knok

Hi Knok

I was unable to download the letters from the website. Can you please email me at : palnatir@hotmail.com.

Thanks

palnatir · 04-23-2008, 12:45 AM

Hi

Can some one send me the copies of letters posted on this forum. I was unable to download. I have 3 other friends and we all are planning to send these letters to NABP. My email address is : palnatir@hotmail.com

Thanks
Sreenath

View Poll Results: When will you plan to send these letters?
By this weekend, June 24, 2007	14	35.90%
By next week, June 30, 2007	11	28.21%
By the beginning of next month, July 8, 2007	6	15.38%
By the middle of July, 2007	8	20.51%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

07-02-2007, 04:43 AM	#21 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,138	Hi wish to pass, We already finished the letters and started to send both of them since last Wednesday. We included what you are mentioning. Please click on the attachment and read both the letters carefully. Here is the copy of page 3-4 on the first letter, TOEFL iBT Complaint: "Test takers have 15 seconds to think and 45 seconds to speak. It is really difficult for test takers to think and formulate their thoughts in 15 seconds and organize and speak in 45 seconds, particularly when the questions are not familiar in their daily lives. For the rest of the questions, candidates are required to summarize the conversations, lectures, and reading provided. In some tests, the topics are too difficult or are not in the interest of test takers. This test is unrealistic for measuring speaking ability of test takers. It is the test that puts more focus on organizing speech in the time limit. ETS mentions on its ETS official guide that test takers may not finish the tasks but can still get a high score and, in the meantime, those who can speak fluently may not get a high score in the Speaking section test if they cannot answer intelligibly and sustainably. Not surprisingly, after asking many test takers, even though they can speak fluently, most of them are very nervous during the test and cannot finish answering the questions, none of them can get a score higher than 24. ETS informs institutions that a score of 26 is a score that is equal to a score of 50 on the Test of Spoken English (ETS official guide, p. 350). However, a score of 26 on the speaking section of TOEFL iBT is currently a minimum score for professionals to fulfill their requirements for their professional licenses. According to TOEFL® Test and Score Data Summary for TOEFL Internet-Based Test: September 2005-December 2006 Test Data (ETS, page 9-10), the mean score of the candidates from the United States on the Speaking section of TOEFL iBT was only 22 whereas the mean score of the candidates from countries in which English is their primary language is 23. Even though some of these Americans may not have grown up speaking English in America, it is important to recognize the relatively low score for those who have been in an English speaking country for their entire lives. This result indicates that the test is invalid and unrealistic in the real world. This test seems to measure intelligibility or other aspects rather than the language ability. This seems to be unfair for test takers when it is obvious that getting a high score on the Speaking section has nothing to do with the ability to speak English fluently. " In my opinion, anyone who receives 20 on speaking section is able to communicate clearly. We just have problem with topic development. That's why we asked NABP to accept the score of 20 on the speaking section. We are going to send 2 different letters, TOEFL iBT and Petition to NABP, to State Boards next week, tomorrow. I am searching the addresses and lists of State Boards, House of Representatives, and Senators since they are the group of people who will make changes to legislature of each state. Please see another thread on, Let's get together all pharmacists. Knok _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "I see so much testing in the world, and see how badly most of it is done. I also see the faith many people put in tests and test results, and the consequences for people when test results are used to make decisions about their lives. --Liz Hamp-Lyons (2002)" -

07-10-2007, 04:11 AM	#22 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,138	I just want to update. Some of us received a response from Consumer Affairs (TOEFL iBT Complaint). The case will be investigated immediately. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "I see so much testing in the world, and see how badly most of it is done. I also see the faith many people put in tests and test results, and the consequences for people when test results are used to make decisions about their lives. --Liz Hamp-Lyons (2002)" -

07-11-2007, 06:58 PM	#25 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,138	So far, four people received the responses. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "I see so much testing in the world, and see how badly most of it is done. I also see the faith many people put in tests and test results, and the consequences for people when test results are used to make decisions about their lives. --Liz Hamp-Lyons (2002)" -

07-19-2007, 07:48 AM	#27 (permalink)
allihya Eager! Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 72	I hope NABP will give positive feedback ... To Knok, Emac and everyone else who have initiated the petition, thank you very much. After going through the threads about TOEFL IBT and the petition to NABP, I felt the twinge of the ordeal you'd been through. I felt like helping you all, but the fact that I haven't taken the test yet gives me no experience as to how it was facilititated here in my country. Very soon or maybe when my FPGEE results ( I hope it's positive) will be out, I will take TOEFL IBT. Well I hope not to go through the same discouraging and dissapointing situation and I hope to pass at once. Maybe then I could be of more help. But please tell me how to help you now, even if I haven't taken the test yet. God Bless to All!

07-11-2007, 01:29 PM	#23 (permalink)
ylynnly Eager! Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 39	Hi Knok, I also received the letter from Ms. Donna Giovannetti today. They said that they will begin to investigate our complaint immediately. Is there anybody who receive reply letter from NABP up to know? REgards, Lynn

07-11-2007, 03:43 PM	#24 (permalink)
emac Eager! Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 64	knok and others, yes I did received the reply letter from Consumer Affairs saying that they are opening an investigation. The earth is moving. Hope to receive something similar from NABP and the State Boards soon. emac

07-11-2007, 07:23 PM	#26 (permalink)
tobeekulit Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 22	I also did receieve a response from Ms.Donna Giovannetti, saying that they will begin to investigate our complaint immediately.

07-21-2007, 05:17 AM	#28 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,138	Wish to pass, I moved your discussion to this thread, "Let's ge together to send the complaint" so that we can discuss our concern in the same thread. Please check and read information in that thread. Thanks. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "I see so much testing in the world, and see how badly most of it is done. I also see the faith many people put in tests and test results, and the consequences for people when test results are used to make decisions about their lives. --Liz Hamp-Lyons (2002)" -

04-23-2008, 12:45 AM	#30 (permalink)
palnatir Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3	Hi Can some one send me the copies of letters posted on this forum. I was unable to download. I have 3 other friends and we all are planning to send these letters to NABP. My email address is : palnatir@hotmail.com Thanks Sreenath

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