TestMagic

dana123 · 09-11-2007, 04:38 PM

September 7, 2007

Your letter has been forwarded to the Foreign Pharmacy Graduate Examination Committee (FPGEC). Thank you for relaying your concerns with the Test of English as a Foreign Language Internet-based Test (TOEFL iBT) administered by Educational Testing Services (ETS). The applicability and validity of all requirements for FPGEC Certification are reviewed annually. In this regard, we will look at the use of the TOEFL iBT and the impact it has on the certification precess. As part of this process consideration will be given to candidate concerns with TOEFL iBT.

Please note that the minimum required scores for the TOEFL iBT were established by a panel of diverse healthcare professional credentialing bodies providing a standardized acceptable level of performance on the TOEFL iBT. Through this panel it was determined that the minimal acceptable score on the Speaking section of theTOEFL iBT is 26 to ensure that the standards established to protect the public health are not lowered. Further, review of the revalent data indicates that the score of 26 in the Speaking section is equivalent to a score of 50 on the Test of Spoken English (TSE).

Please note that as a candidate for FPGEC Certification you must meet the current requirements with regards to the TOEFL iBT as indicated in FPGEC Bulletin. Candidates will be notified of program changes by mail and through our website at NABP <> National Association of Boards of Pharmacy.

emac · 09-11-2007, 11:32 PM

dana,
I found the NABP's answer a little bit open. It seems that they are really analysing the situation.
C'mon guys, keep sending letters to NABP. Little by little we can make FPGEC open their eyes.
emac

knok · 09-12-2007, 05:35 AM

I received the same letter. The additional last paragraph is:

We would urge you to contact ETS directly with your comments concerning the TOEFL iBT. You may contact them at:

Educational Testing Service

PO BOX 6151
Princeton, NJ 08541-6151
Telephone: 609/771-7100

In my opinion, it is time for a class action lawsuit.

I will post the PO BOX for test takers who want to send your evidence to testify and prove that TOEFL iBT is not valid for the high score requirement.

ETS does not offer a fair method for test takers. The obvious reason is about a rescoring process. Why can the score be changed? We complained in several issues. When the test administration is an issue, the problems must be addressed. Otherwise, millions of dollars of test takers will go down the drain.

We hope that NABP will listen to us. We are still waiting that, one day, a fair method of measuring the language requirement of foreign pharmacists will be used in the FPGEC process. Hopefully, other tests will be used in substitute of iBT.

As long as NABP allows the monopoly to prosper although NABP realizes that ETS has good things going, things will never change. Foreign pharmacists will be suppressed to go through this bad test administration and scoring process forever.

We need a lawyer to help in the process. We have no choice.

Please wait for a new thread about sending your evidence. We need it quickly.

Best regards,

cindee · 09-12-2007, 05:41 PM

I totally agree with Knok.This monopoly should not exist. We should be allowed to have choices. Medical board allows foreign doctors to take different english tests at their choice. TSE is one of them. The passing score is 45. Most of my friends who are practicing medicine told me most of TSE test takers were foreign pharmacists because they have higher required passing score.They have to repeatly take it again and again. Why is that? Does medical doctor have less contact with patients or does medical board not establish a standard to protect public health?

pharmacist14 · 09-12-2007, 07:03 PM

Hello,

Foreign doctors do not need to take English test as such. Their english is tested during one of their exam in which they have to take patient history and counsel patients. All they have to talk with patient is like this? How are you?

What brings you here?

Asking questions about respective disease as for example if somebody has head ache the doctors start with question like when did it start? so and so.

They have set of questions to ask for a paticular disease and they memorise them before exam.
When something is related with your own profession everybody can do it. But in toefl we have to answer some weired questions which are not related with our profession. We have to think in 20 secs and answer with in 1 min which is very difficult.

Nurses are the ones who also work in health sector but they have alternatives like IELTS but we do not.

Anyway, I wish everyone to get 26 in speaking.

knok · 09-12-2007, 08:00 PM

I received these arguments through email:

To this we can reply, politely, that we completely agree with them!!!, healthcare is important but:

-Foreign doctors need only 24 and they work in healthcare.

-Nurses have another exam and they work in health care.

-It will not harm healthcare if you were allowed to pass only the speaking part. In fact, it will hurt only the ETS health and pocket.

-The average of the American and the Britain in the speaking part: 22, and 23, respectively.

-)The TOEFL requirements of the prestigious university in the US (for example Harvard is requiring 109, but if you got 30+30+29+25=114 it will not be enough since 25 is in speaking).

-The requirements of doctors are lower.

-Nurses have a face-to-face interview.

- We issue them a list of, something like 10 Pharmacy universities, showing them that the TOEFL requirement to these universities are lower and point to the fact that foreign graduates from American Pharmacy Universities will be able to work with no consequences on the general healthcare.

-Different test for speaking.

-OR different score

All the time emphasizing the fact that all of the options will not harm healthcare and will not lower the standards.

knok · 09-16-2007, 06:55 PM

Please read an article written by Dean Papa John regarding the use of panelist setting standard.

Source: http://tesl-ej.org/ej37/a1.pdf

Quote (last paragraph):

Conclusions

Based on these observations it should be clear that the results from the ETS panel of ITA developers
should be looked at cautiously and interpreted carefully. "All standard setting is judgmental," as Jaeger
(1976, p. 22) succinctly puts it. So, what can we do with the results from the ETS sponsored standard
setting panel? The point of this article is not to criticize the standard setting process recommended by
ETS. They have applied a number of methods used in assessment and research in the past. However, it is
important to know why certain methods were chosen, what the strengths and weakness of different
methods are, and the issues that are raised in the steps of standard setting. Understanding the standard
setting process can lead to a better interpretation of the standards that are set.
The results from the ETS standard setting panel should be considered as a starting point rather than as
an end in itself. It is data you can use as a comparison to your own institutional context. Before
establishing a cut off score for your institution you should investigate ITA responsibilities, go through
local standard setting, and follow through with validating the cut score. The contrasting groups method
could be applied at the campus level. ESL instructors could be asked to classify their students as ITAhttp://
tesl-ej.org/ej37/a1.html (5 of 7)7/2/2006 2:24:25 AM
TESL-EJ 10.1 -- Standard setting for next generation TOEFL Academic Sp...ctions on the ETS Panel of International Teaching Assistant Developers
ready or not, then the overlap of frequency distributions of scores could be reviewed (Hambleton et al.,
2000). In addition, you can also utilize other assessments such as, listening cut scores, interview, and
performance tests. ITA supervisors and students of ITAs can be surveyed to validate the cut off score for
ITAs (Papajohn, in press). Finally, rather than adopt or accept someone else's cut score, use the standard
setting process as an opportunity to raise awareness of ITA issues at your institution.

knok · 09-16-2007, 07:06 PM

Here is another article that ETS admits that a high noise level affects the test performance. In my opinion, it is a common sense that quiet environment should be a standard requirement for every test.

Influence of Irrelevant Speech on Standardized Test Perform

Influence of Irrelevant Speech on Standardized Test Performance

"Attempts to reduce distraction to an acceptable level were largely unsuccessful. The impact on actual test performance, however, was slight in the GMAT sample and negligible in both GRE and TOEFL samples.
The conclusion was that intermingling examinees with others who are taking a speaking test remains a concern, primarly because of strong negative perceptions by test takesr. More effective means need to be devised to reduce or control distraction."

Trav · 09-20-2007, 02:09 PM

Dear friends,

I came across this article on the front page of yahoo today and felt like sharing it with you. It's about "HOW TO COMPLAIN ABOUT POOR SERVICE AND WIN".

ETS & NABP are providing us poor services after earning millions of dollars from our torn pockets. I consider this as fraud.... because what is happening is a form of deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain. With all our credible complaints, NABP gives us indefinite answers which don't indicate when the existing mess is gonna get fixed. We've got to stand up firm and show them that we know our rights as their customers. If they managed to fix Georgia's NAPLEX breach (that happened few days ago) within days... then why didn't they fix FPGEC/TOEFLiBT issue which was brought to them several months prior to the NAPLEX breach? If they had emergency meetings to fix the NAPLEX breach, why didn't they do the same thing to our credible complaint?

Commiting fraud and/or knowingly continuing to use services or setting conditions that allow a person/organization to continue committing fraud are both SERIOUS offences under the LAW.

Take time and read the article... You'll see that we are almost there!!!!!! Steps that we haven't taken (according to the article & my long time instincts) might cost these two organizations (ETS & NABP) millions of dollars... Everybody, stand up for your rights!!!! Don't let nobody undermine you....

link: http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home...plaint-and-Win

09-11-2007, 04:38 PM	#1 (permalink)
dana123 Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 3	The Reply from The FPGEC. What should we do next? September 7, 2007 Your letter has been forwarded to the Foreign Pharmacy Graduate Examination Committee (FPGEC). Thank you for relaying your concerns with the Test of English as a Foreign Language Internet-based Test (TOEFL iBT) administered by Educational Testing Services (ETS). The applicability and validity of all requirements for FPGEC Certification are reviewed annually. In this regard, we will look at the use of the TOEFL iBT and the impact it has on the certification precess. As part of this process consideration will be given to candidate concerns with TOEFL iBT. Please note that the minimum required scores for the TOEFL iBT were established by a panel of diverse healthcare professional credentialing bodies providing a standardized acceptable level of performance on the TOEFL iBT. Through this panel it was determined that the minimal acceptable score on the Speaking section of theTOEFL iBT is 26 to ensure that the standards established to protect the public health are not lowered. Further, review of the revalent data indicates that the score of 26 in the Speaking section is equivalent to a score of 50 on the Test of Spoken English (TSE). Please note that as a candidate for FPGEC Certification you must meet the current requirements with regards to the TOEFL iBT as indicated in FPGEC Bulletin. Candidates will be notified of program changes by mail and through our website at NABP <> National Association of Boards of Pharmacy.

09-12-2007, 05:35 AM	#3 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,072	I received the same letter. The additional last paragraph is: We would urge you to contact ETS directly with your comments concerning the TOEFL iBT. You may contact them at: Educational Testing Service PO BOX 6151 Princeton, NJ 08541-6151 Telephone: 609/771-7100 In my opinion, it is time for a class action lawsuit. I will post the PO BOX for test takers who want to send your evidence to testify and prove that TOEFL iBT is not valid for the high score requirement. ETS does not offer a fair method for test takers. The obvious reason is about a rescoring process. Why can the score be changed? We complained in several issues. When the test administration is an issue, the problems must be addressed. Otherwise, millions of dollars of test takers will go down the drain. We hope that NABP will listen to us. We are still waiting that, one day, a fair method of measuring the language requirement of foreign pharmacists will be used in the FPGEC process. Hopefully, other tests will be used in substitute of iBT. As long as NABP allows the monopoly to prosper although NABP realizes that ETS has good things going, things will never change. Foreign pharmacists will be suppressed to go through this bad test administration and scoring process forever. We need a lawyer to help in the process. We have no choice. Please wait for a new thread about sending your evidence. We need it quickly. Best regards, _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "Every reason that tells you that things will never change disappears." "I did what I had to do because it is the right thing to do."

09-12-2007, 08:00 PM	#6 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,072	I received these arguments through email: To this we can reply, politely, that we completely agree with them!!!, healthcare is important but: -Foreign doctors need only 24 and they work in healthcare. -Nurses have another exam and they work in health care. -It will not harm healthcare if you were allowed to pass only the speaking part. In fact, it will hurt only the ETS health and pocket. -The average of the American and the Britain in the speaking part: 22, and 23, respectively. -)The TOEFL requirements of the prestigious university in the US (for example Harvard is requiring 109, but if you got 30+30+29+25=114 it will not be enough since 25 is in speaking). -The requirements of doctors are lower. -Nurses have a face-to-face interview. - We issue them a list of, something like 10 Pharmacy universities, showing them that the TOEFL requirement to these universities are lower and point to the fact that foreign graduates from American Pharmacy Universities will be able to work with no consequences on the general healthcare. -Different test for speaking. -OR different score All the time emphasizing the fact that all of the options will not harm healthcare and will not lower the standards. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "Every reason that tells you that things will never change disappears." "I did what I had to do because it is the right thing to do."

09-16-2007, 06:55 PM	#7 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,072	Please read an article written by Dean Papa John regarding the use of panelist setting standard. Source: http://tesl-ej.org/ej37/a1.pdf Quote (last paragraph): Conclusions Based on these observations it should be clear that the results from the ETS panel of ITA developers should be looked at cautiously and interpreted carefully. "All standard setting is judgmental," as Jaeger (1976, p. 22) succinctly puts it. So, what can we do with the results from the ETS sponsored standard setting panel? The point of this article is not to criticize the standard setting process recommended by ETS. They have applied a number of methods used in assessment and research in the past. However, it is important to know why certain methods were chosen, what the strengths and weakness of different methods are, and the issues that are raised in the steps of standard setting. Understanding the standard setting process can lead to a better interpretation of the standards that are set. The results from the ETS standard setting panel should be considered as a starting point rather than as an end in itself. It is data you can use as a comparison to your own institutional context. Before establishing a cut off score for your institution you should investigate ITA responsibilities, go through local standard setting, and follow through with validating the cut score. The contrasting groups method could be applied at the campus level. ESL instructors could be asked to classify their students as ITAhttp:// tesl-ej.org/ej37/a1.html (5 of 7)7/2/2006 2:24:25 AM TESL-EJ 10.1 -- Standard setting for next generation TOEFL Academic Sp...ctions on the ETS Panel of International Teaching Assistant Developers ready or not, then the overlap of frequency distributions of scores could be reviewed (Hambleton et al., 2000). In addition, you can also utilize other assessments such as, listening cut scores, interview, and performance tests. ITA supervisors and students of ITAs can be surveyed to validate the cut off score for ITAs (Papajohn, in press). Finally, rather than adopt or accept someone else's cut score, use the standard setting process as an opportunity to raise awareness of ITA issues at your institution. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "Every reason that tells you that things will never change disappears." "I did what I had to do because it is the right thing to do."

09-16-2007, 07:06 PM	#8 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,072	Here is another article that ETS admits that a high noise level affects the test performance. In my opinion, it is a common sense that quiet environment should be a standard requirement for every test. Influence of Irrelevant Speech on Standardized Test Perform Influence of Irrelevant Speech on Standardized Test Performance "Attempts to reduce distraction to an acceptable level were largely unsuccessful. The impact on actual test performance, however, was slight in the GMAT sample and negligible in both GRE and TOEFL samples. The conclusion was that intermingling examinees with others who are taking a speaking test remains a concern, primarly because of strong negative perceptions by test takesr. More effective means need to be devised to reduce or control distraction." _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "Every reason that tells you that things will never change disappears." "I did what I had to do because it is the right thing to do."

09-11-2007, 11:32 PM	#2 (permalink)
emac Eager! Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 49	dana, I found the NABP's answer a little bit open. It seems that they are really analysing the situation. C'mon guys, keep sending letters to NABP. Little by little we can make FPGEC open their eyes. emac

09-12-2007, 05:41 PM	#4 (permalink)
cindee Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 10	I totally agree with Knok.This monopoly should not exist. We should be allowed to have choices. Medical board allows foreign doctors to take different english tests at their choice. TSE is one of them. The passing score is 45. Most of my friends who are practicing medicine told me most of TSE test takers were foreign pharmacists because they have higher required passing score.They have to repeatly take it again and again. Why is that? Does medical doctor have less contact with patients or does medical board not establish a standard to protect public health?

09-12-2007, 07:03 PM	#5 (permalink)
pharmacist14 Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 29	Hello, Foreign doctors do not need to take English test as such. Their english is tested during one of their exam in which they have to take patient history and counsel patients. All they have to talk with patient is like this? How are you? What brings you here? Asking questions about respective disease as for example if somebody has head ache the doctors start with question like when did it start? so and so. They have set of questions to ask for a paticular disease and they memorise them before exam. When something is related with your own profession everybody can do it. But in toefl we have to answer some weired questions which are not related with our profession. We have to think in 20 secs and answer with in 1 min which is very difficult. Nurses are the ones who also work in health sector but they have alternatives like IELTS but we do not. Anyway, I wish everyone to get 26 in speaking.

09-20-2007, 02:09 PM	#9 (permalink)
Trav Eager! Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 93	Dear friends, I came across this article on the front page of yahoo today and felt like sharing it with you. It's about "HOW TO COMPLAIN ABOUT POOR SERVICE AND WIN". ETS & NABP are providing us poor services after earning millions of dollars from our torn pockets. I consider this as fraud.... because what is happening is a form of deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain. With all our credible complaints, NABP gives us indefinite answers which don't indicate when the existing mess is gonna get fixed. We've got to stand up firm and show them that we know our rights as their customers. If they managed to fix Georgia's NAPLEX breach (that happened few days ago) within days... then why didn't they fix FPGEC/TOEFLiBT issue which was brought to them several months prior to the NAPLEX breach? If they had emergency meetings to fix the NAPLEX breach, why didn't they do the same thing to our credible complaint? Commiting fraud and/or knowingly continuing to use services or setting conditions that allow a person/organization to continue committing fraud are both SERIOUS offences under the LAW. Take time and read the article... You'll see that we are almost there!!!!!! Steps that we haven't taken (according to the article & my long time instincts) might cost these two organizations (ETS & NABP) millions of dollars... Everybody, stand up for your rights!!!! Don't let nobody undermine you.... link: http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home...plaint-and-Win Last edited by Trav : 09-20-2007 at 07:07 PM.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

TestMagic

Free GMAT, GRE, SAT Test, TOEFL practice tests