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knok · 04-20-2008, 05:03 AM

Thanks Oxybye2 for your comments. Any comment or experience from any of you is important to our plan. We will copy and paste your comment in a file, "facts about TOEFL iBT."

I cannot believe that some of us know that ETS and NABP join together to set a very high score of TOEFL iBT, how come do you keep taking the exams? You send the money to ETS every month with no good results, no good test conditions, hoping to achieve a score of 26: at 89 percentile. I say that ETS and NABP join together because NABP knows all about the poor testing conditions and the trouble ETS has caused us, NABP chooses to do nothing to fix it. It is nothing more than you are supporting the robbery. NABP cannot control ETS but it can fix its own part. Why does it have to be "the monopoly"? Thousands of FPGEC candidates are suffering because of this. I believe that smart people like pharmacists know what to do but they choose not to fix it. Spread the word to everyone of us, to everyone of your schools about this dilemma. Call your prefessors in your hometowns about the situations. At least, we tell others not to fall in the same tunnel.

89 out of 100 candidates fail the speaking section each time. Who gains the benefit from this mess? Is it intentional effort to fail us, to steal our hard earn money? Not to mention emotional stress and torture we receive from following the FPGEC certificate program. Some of us do not even know that the failure rate is 89 percent. I am not kidding.

If we do nothing, new FPGEE candidates will pay $700 plus travelling expenses and accommodations, will waste a year for FPGEE preparation and another 1-6 years to get the FPGEC certificate. At least the information about the number of those who received FPGEC certificate should be disclosed somewhere. Why?

I guess that if NABP disclosed this information, there would not be many candidates applying for FPGEE. Then, what's next? I will let you exercise your brain.

yashak · 04-20-2008, 07:18 PM

Hi all,

United we succeed, divided we fail. I understand your frustration Oxanabye2. It isn't your failure or your inability to effectively communicate in English. It is a system well designed to prevent foreign pharmacists from practicing the profession they are trained for. If it is about communication skills, they could come up with a workable method to measure applicants’ ability to communicate with the Board, fellow pharmacists, other health care professionals and patients. As we all know, there are millions of Americans, who even don't speak English or little, fill their prescriptions both at Chain and Hospital pharmacists. We all know how the pharmacists are communicating with them but that isn't the case. The issue is protectionism while there is critical shortage of pharmacists created artificially by interest groups.

For instance, I sat for iBT TOEF nce but decided not even to take it again. I think it is a waste of money. The first time I took it, I traveled to a different state as there are no available dates in CA until after June, 08. I spent more than $600.00. I didn't make it for the very reason that my speaking score is way below their requirement. I don't want to go again and waste my hard earned money on something that is unrealistic. I know there are a few who passed and still arguing that it is possible. They might have tried 4 or more times. But keep trying to pass doesn't measure once ability to communicate effectively. It seems to me a probability game.

Anyway, we have to mobilize foreign graduates in the US or abroad to tell NABP in uncertain terms, enough is enough. They have to evaluate their criteria. Foreign pharmacy graduates aren't dumb enough to fill the coffers of NABP and ETS in a hope of realizing their dream of practicing pharmacy in US.

Time is of the essence and we have to act before it is late.

Yashak
-

piyu · 04-23-2008, 07:16 PM

Hi knok and yashak and everyone who is a foreign pharmacist to USA and trying very hard to get Pharmacist license here. I am a regular reader and responder of this great forum and I do appreciate and support your work and fight against harsh rules of NABP, FPGEC and especially ETS. I passed FPGEE in Dec 2007 but failed thrice to achieve TOEFL speaking score of 26 which has frustrated me a lot. I am from India and studied English for 16 years and was working in R&D for a well known MNC pharmaceutical industry.
But now it is not at all acceptable to me to keep quiet and just let ETS to fill up their pockets each month with a substantial amount that I can afford now.
We have to take stand against this injustice. Yes we are foreign graduates but we deserve justice in USA. I do believe that English speaking is very important for pharmacist in USA but with the treatment and results that we are getting from ETS, one can only conclude that whatever going on is just not fair and true. Yes, I know commenting like this is wrong but I do not trust ETS now and I know most of you have the same feelings. For example on one hand ETS states that they do not expect speaking English in USA accent from us and on the other hand they cut our marks anyhow.( do not know why because I am confidant about myself that I know English very well and can communicate nicely too yet I am not getting 26 and the reason only left is my accent).
I sincerely think that ETS has done enough damage to all of us and have earned enough free money but now this should change.
I just wanted to share my feelings with you all.
I wish all the best to all of us and I know we will win in this fight.
Thanks. I am always with you.
Just tell me, after reading this tread of mine, do you think that I am that bad in English that ETS is trying to prove repeatedly ....................................we are in the same boat.....................

knok · 04-23-2008, 07:26 PM

Thanks Piyu, yashak and everyone,

Are you still with us? I have sent PM to many of us. We need to know what you are thinking.

Here is the dilemma:

NABP told us to contact ETS.

When we contacted ETS, ETS told us to contact NABP.

ETS does not recommend any institutions required scores but ETS published in its official guide that 26 on speaking = 50 in TSE (page 360). ETS published on the score report of TSE that 50 on TSE refers that candidates can communicate effectively.

ETS suggested us to contact NABP to reduce the score requirement. ETS admitted that a score of 26 on iBT was very high.

It seems that this issue goes nowhere. If we do not do anything, foreign pharmacists will be the victims of the failure system.

It is called,"Slavery in civilization."

ETS published in its official guide that those who communicate effectively but lack ability to develop the topics being asked will not receive a high score in TOEFL iBT speaking.

This system is flawed since questions are not completely related to our careers. Most of us lack information skills. Only 11 percent of total test takers pass the TOEFL iBT speaking.

I hope to hear your constructive comments.

Time is running out. Please respond.

I am trying to contact ACLU but probably we need to send letters to every state's ACLU. I also talked to ACLU office in Maryland this morning and get some references. I believe that if everyone of us keeps working hard on how to get rid of the TOEFL iBT, we will succeed.

Thanks.

knok · 04-24-2008, 05:47 AM

Here is the link to ACLU:

American Civil Liberties Union : Contact

knok · 04-24-2008, 11:24 AM

Please read this article. The reasons why CGSNF accepts other English tests as alternatives.

CGFNS International

I hope that NABP would like do things in a fair way soon.

Trav · 04-24-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knok

Please read this article. The reasons why CGSNF accepts other English tests as alternatives.

CGFNS International

I hope that NABP would like do things in a fair way soon.

If IELTS meets statutory requirements then it doesn't make any sense for NABP not accepting IELTS as an alternative exam. This is more into politics or dirty games than science. Pharmacists are not politicians. It is quite immoral & unprofessional seeing them playing dirty games.

NABP has an attorney who was supposed to recommend IELTS to NABP executive committee long time ago. It is not too late to remind them. Let's do it...
-

knok · 04-26-2008, 05:58 PM

Folks,

What are you coming up with so far? Please suggest. Also, please sign in and check your private message.

Thank you.

Knok

knok · 04-27-2008, 07:28 PM

Hi pharmacists,

I received private messages from us asking, “Where are we at right now?” Even though requirements on TOEFL iBT for pharmacists seem to follow no logical path, I personally think that it is ridiculous that ETS published its own requirements or even did its own research for score requirements. It is going to be biased. The higher score, the more money I can make, right?

I worked for multinational pharmaceutical companies for years. Any research done by companies themselves would receive low credit by doctors and health practitioners. In this case, any score guidelines suggested by ETS should be scrutinized by institutions before being used as cut-off scores.

Unfortunately, NABP is too busy to conduct its own research. Consulting with ETS and following research done by ETS is easy and the only choice for NABP. Complaints being sent for years by test takers might not be read by NABP officials. In addition, despite the shortfall of pharmacists in the future, the rigid policy of NABP shows that NABP responds to this crisis by shutting the door to foreign pharmacists by using high score requirements for TOEFL iBT speaking or, in other words, using invalid English test in the FPGEC certificate program.

Personally, to be fair for all parties and all patients, alternative exams should be used in the FPGEC certificate program. The main problem is that the monopolistic power, which ETS holds, causes all these problems. Without properly addressing the problems we have raised to NABP, trust to the FPGEC certificate program by test takers will be reduced over time. No one wants to take the tests that they cannot pass or has little chance to achieve his/her goal.

The only solution for now is to allow alternative exams, not reducing the requirements. Allowing competitions among test companies will demonstrate transparency in the FPGEC certificate program as well because the question being asked by test takers, " Why does NABP use the monopoly?, Do NABP and ETS have mutual benefit?" Once alternatives are being used, I am sure that NABP can be perceived as an institution that provides a fair method of certifying foreign pharmacists.

If, this year, NABP reduces the score requirements, next year, ETS will increase its standard. Probably, a score of 24 will be at 89 percentile again as ETS has done with the test of Spoken English (TSE). Ten years ago, 50 on TSE was at 75 percentile, later, it increased to 86 percentile, which was such a high score. Nurses got away with TOEFL. All the nurses went to the board and said, “No” to TOEFL. At that time, test conditions of TOEFL were really bad. I took that version of TOEFL as well. I strongly believe that TOEFL iBT provided worse testing condition than the paper based TOEFL.

Trav · 04-28-2008, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knok

Hi pharmacists,

I received private messages from us asking, “Where are we at right now?” Even though requirements on TOEFL iBT for pharmacists seem to follow no logical path, I personally think that it is ridiculous that ETS published its own requirements or even did its own research for score requirements. It is going to be biased. The higher score, the more money I can make, right?

I worked for multinational pharmaceutical companies for years. Any research done by companies themselves would receive low credit by doctors and health practitioners. In this case, any score guidelines suggested by ETS should be scrutinized by institutions before being used as cut-off scores.

Unfortunately, NABP is too busy to conduct its own research. Consulting with ETS and following research done by ETS is easy and the only choice for NABP. Complaints being sent for years by test takers might not be read by NABP officials. In addition, despite the shortfall of pharmacists in the future, the rigid policy of NABP shows that NABP responds to this crisis by shutting the door to foreign pharmacists by using high score requirements for TOEFL iBT speaking or, in other words, using invalid English test in the FPGEC certificate program.

Personally, to be fair for all parties and all patients, alternative exams should be used in the FPGEC certificate program. The main problem is that the monopolistic power, which ETS holds, causes all these problems. Without properly addressing the problems we have raised to NABP, trust to the FPGEC certificate program by test takers will be reduced over time. No one wants to take the tests that they cannot pass or has low chance to achieve his/her goal.

The only solution for now is to allow alternative exams, not reducing the requirements. Allowing competitions among test companies will demonstrate transparency in the FPGEC certificate program as well because the question being asked by test takers, " Why does NABP use the monopoly?, Do NABP and ETS have mutual benefit?" Once alternatives are being used, I am sure that NABP can be perceived as an institution that provides a fair method of certifying foreign pharmacists.

If, this year, NABP reduces the score requirements, next year, ETS will increase its standard. Probably, a score of 24 will be at 89 percentile again as ETS has done with the test of Spoken English (TSE). Ten years ago, 50 on TSE was at 75 percentile, later, it increased to 86 percentile, which was such a high score. Nurses got away with TOEFL. All the nurses went to the board and said, “No” to TOEFL. At that time, test conditions of TOEFL were really bad. I took that version of TOEFL as well. I strongly believe that TOEFL iBT provided worse testing condition than the paper based TOEFL.

Good points Knok,

If ETS has been doing all this for decades while continuing to dominate the market then there's a system error. This is a very straightforward matter that does not merit a congressional enquiry. It is quite easy to see elements of conflict of interest here. It is like stealing in broad daylight. TOEFLiBT's monopoly to test pharmacists' English competency should go!!!!! Our main enemy is not ETS, it is NABP.

We should gather all these data and present to NABP whenever we achieve to meet them face to face. There's no question that iBT is an invalid test. We deserve an alternative test.

Department of Health & Human Services approved IELTS to test foreign health workers' English competency. Authoritative legal documentation support that IELTS meets the statutory requirements. NABP is not above the Law. We need to unite and end this injustice. Together we can!!!!

-

View Poll Results: Would you like to discuss your concern with NABP?
1. Yes, I would like to meet anywhere and anytime.	15	23.81%
2. Yes, it depends on where and when the meeting is.	31	49.21%
3. No, I wouldn't, but I am willing to support in other means.	17	26.98%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

04-20-2008, 05:03 AM	#31 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,045	Thanks Oxybye2 for your comments. Any comment or experience from any of you is important to our plan. We will copy and paste your comment in a file, "facts about TOEFL iBT." I cannot believe that some of us know that ETS and NABP join together to set a very high score of TOEFL iBT, how come do you keep taking the exams? You send the money to ETS every month with no good results, no good test conditions, hoping to achieve a score of 26: at 89 percentile. I say that ETS and NABP join together because NABP knows all about the poor testing conditions and the trouble ETS has caused us, NABP chooses to do nothing to fix it. It is nothing more than you are supporting the robbery. NABP cannot control ETS but it can fix its own part. Why does it have to be "the monopoly"? Thousands of FPGEC candidates are suffering because of this. I believe that smart people like pharmacists know what to do but they choose not to fix it. Spread the word to everyone of us, to everyone of your schools about this dilemma. Call your prefessors in your hometowns about the situations. At least, we tell others not to fall in the same tunnel. 89 out of 100 candidates fail the speaking section each time. Who gains the benefit from this mess? Is it intentional effort to fail us, to steal our hard earn money? Not to mention emotional stress and torture we receive from following the FPGEC certificate program. Some of us do not even know that the failure rate is 89 percent. I am not kidding. If we do nothing, new FPGEE candidates will pay $700 plus travelling expenses and accommodations, will waste a year for FPGEE preparation and another 1-6 years to get the FPGEC certificate. At least the information about the number of those who received FPGEC certificate should be disclosed somewhere. Why? I guess that if NABP disclosed this information, there would not be many candidates applying for FPGEE. Then, what's next? I will let you exercise your brain. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "Every reason that tells you that things will never change disappears." "I did what I had to do because it is the right thing to do." Last edited by knok : 04-20-2008 at 06:20 PM.

04-20-2008, 07:18 PM	#32 (permalink)
yashak Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 7	Hi all, United we succeed, divided we fail. I understand your frustration Oxanabye2. It isn't your failure or your inability to effectively communicate in English. It is a system well designed to prevent foreign pharmacists from practicing the profession they are trained for. If it is about communication skills, they could come up with a workable method to measure applicants’ ability to communicate with the Board, fellow pharmacists, other health care professionals and patients. As we all know, there are millions of Americans, who even don't speak English or little, fill their prescriptions both at Chain and Hospital pharmacists. We all know how the pharmacists are communicating with them but that isn't the case. The issue is protectionism while there is critical shortage of pharmacists created artificially by interest groups. For instance, I sat for iBT TOEF nce but decided not even to take it again. I think it is a waste of money. The first time I took it, I traveled to a different state as there are no available dates in CA until after June, 08. I spent more than $600.00. I didn't make it for the very reason that my speaking score is way below their requirement. I don't want to go again and waste my hard earned money on something that is unrealistic. I know there are a few who passed and still arguing that it is possible. They might have tried 4 or more times. But keep trying to pass doesn't measure once ability to communicate effectively. It seems to me a probability game. Anyway, we have to mobilize foreign graduates in the US or abroad to tell NABP in uncertain terms, enough is enough. They have to evaluate their criteria. Foreign pharmacy graduates aren't dumb enough to fill the coffers of NABP and ETS in a hope of realizing their dream of practicing pharmacy in US. Time is of the essence and we have to act before it is late. Yashak - Last edited by knok : 04-20-2008 at 07:43 PM.

04-23-2008, 07:26 PM	#34 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,045	Thanks Piyu, yashak and everyone, Are you still with us? I have sent PM to many of us. We need to know what you are thinking. Here is the dilemma: NABP told us to contact ETS. When we contacted ETS, ETS told us to contact NABP. ETS does not recommend any institutions required scores but ETS published in its official guide that 26 on speaking = 50 in TSE (page 360). ETS published on the score report of TSE that 50 on TSE refers that candidates can communicate effectively. ETS suggested us to contact NABP to reduce the score requirement. ETS admitted that a score of 26 on iBT was very high. It seems that this issue goes nowhere. If we do not do anything, foreign pharmacists will be the victims of the failure system. It is called,"Slavery in civilization." ETS published in its official guide that those who communicate effectively but lack ability to develop the topics being asked will not receive a high score in TOEFL iBT speaking. This system is flawed since questions are not completely related to our careers. Most of us lack information skills. Only 11 percent of total test takers pass the TOEFL iBT speaking. I hope to hear your constructive comments. Time is running out. Please respond. I am trying to contact ACLU but probably we need to send letters to every state's ACLU. I also talked to ACLU office in Maryland this morning and get some references. I believe that if everyone of us keeps working hard on how to get rid of the TOEFL iBT, we will succeed. Thanks. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "Every reason that tells you that things will never change disappears." "I did what I had to do because it is the right thing to do." Last edited by knok : 04-24-2008 at 05:44 AM.

04-24-2008, 05:47 AM	#35 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,045	Here is the link to ACLU: American Civil Liberties Union : Contact _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "Every reason that tells you that things will never change disappears." "I did what I had to do because it is the right thing to do."

04-23-2008, 07:16 PM	#33 (permalink)
piyu Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 17	Hi knok and yashak and everyone who is a foreign pharmacist to USA and trying very hard to get Pharmacist license here. I am a regular reader and responder of this great forum and I do appreciate and support your work and fight against harsh rules of NABP, FPGEC and especially ETS. I passed FPGEE in Dec 2007 but failed thrice to achieve TOEFL speaking score of 26 which has frustrated me a lot. I am from India and studied English for 16 years and was working in R&D for a well known MNC pharmaceutical industry. But now it is not at all acceptable to me to keep quiet and just let ETS to fill up their pockets each month with a substantial amount that I can afford now. We have to take stand against this injustice. Yes we are foreign graduates but we deserve justice in USA. I do believe that English speaking is very important for pharmacist in USA but with the treatment and results that we are getting from ETS, one can only conclude that whatever going on is just not fair and true. Yes, I know commenting like this is wrong but I do not trust ETS now and I know most of you have the same feelings. For example on one hand ETS states that they do not expect speaking English in USA accent from us and on the other hand they cut our marks anyhow.( do not know why because I am confidant about myself that I know English very well and can communicate nicely too yet I am not getting 26 and the reason only left is my accent). I sincerely think that ETS has done enough damage to all of us and have earned enough free money but now this should change. I just wanted to share my feelings with you all. I wish all the best to all of us and I know we will win in this fight. Thanks. I am always with you. Just tell me, after reading this tread of mine, do you think that I am that bad in English that ETS is trying to prove repeatedly ....................................we are in the same boat.....................

04-24-2008, 11:24 AM	#36 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,045	Please read this article. The reasons why CGSNF accepts other English tests as alternatives. CGFNS International I hope that NABP would like do things in a fair way soon. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "Every reason that tells you that things will never change disappears." "I did what I had to do because it is the right thing to do."

04-26-2008, 05:58 PM	#38 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,045	Folks, What are you coming up with so far? Please suggest. Also, please sign in and check your private message. Thank you. Knok _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "Every reason that tells you that things will never change disappears." "I did what I had to do because it is the right thing to do."

04-27-2008, 07:28 PM	#39 (permalink)
knok TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,045	Hi pharmacists, I received private messages from us asking, “Where are we at right now?” Even though requirements on TOEFL iBT for pharmacists seem to follow no logical path, I personally think that it is ridiculous that ETS published its own requirements or even did its own research for score requirements. It is going to be biased. The higher score, the more money I can make, right? I worked for multinational pharmaceutical companies for years. Any research done by companies themselves would receive low credit by doctors and health practitioners. In this case, any score guidelines suggested by ETS should be scrutinized by institutions before being used as cut-off scores. Unfortunately, NABP is too busy to conduct its own research. Consulting with ETS and following research done by ETS is easy and the only choice for NABP. Complaints being sent for years by test takers might not be read by NABP officials. In addition, despite the shortfall of pharmacists in the future, the rigid policy of NABP shows that NABP responds to this crisis by shutting the door to foreign pharmacists by using high score requirements for TOEFL iBT speaking or, in other words, using invalid English test in the FPGEC certificate program. Personally, to be fair for all parties and all patients, alternative exams should be used in the FPGEC certificate program. The main problem is that the monopolistic power, which ETS holds, causes all these problems. Without properly addressing the problems we have raised to NABP, trust to the FPGEC certificate program by test takers will be reduced over time. No one wants to take the tests that they cannot pass or has little chance to achieve his/her goal. The only solution for now is to allow alternative exams, not reducing the requirements. Allowing competitions among test companies will demonstrate transparency in the FPGEC certificate program as well because the question being asked by test takers, " Why does NABP use the monopoly?, Do NABP and ETS have mutual benefit?" Once alternatives are being used, I am sure that NABP can be perceived as an institution that provides a fair method of certifying foreign pharmacists. If, this year, NABP reduces the score requirements, next year, ETS will increase its standard. Probably, a score of 24 will be at 89 percentile again as ETS has done with the test of Spoken English (TSE). Ten years ago, 50 on TSE was at 75 percentile, later, it increased to 86 percentile, which was such a high score. Nurses got away with TOEFL. All the nurses went to the board and said, “No” to TOEFL. At that time, test conditions of TOEFL were really bad. I took that version of TOEFL as well. I strongly believe that TOEFL iBT provided worse testing condition than the paper based TOEFL. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ "Every reason that tells you that things will never change disappears." "I did what I had to do because it is the right thing to do." Last edited by knok : 04-28-2008 at 01:30 AM.

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