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doriangray2009 · 2009 May 7th, 01:03 AM

Rejected too? Sucks, doesn't it? Not to worry. If you're determined to go the business doctoral route, if you're bright enough, & if you're young enough, there is not much in your way to getting in the next time around.

I've scattered some of my experiences throughout this forum, but I thought it would be useful for future applicants to see what a rejected profile looks like, to take what I've learned from my personal experience with rejection into their own self-assessment, & to share in the advise of my own advisors for improving my chances in the next round.

So here goes. I'll re-post my full academic profile at the end.

===

(1) There exists NO applicant that will get in everywhere s/he applies. What does this mean exactly? For starters, each doctoral program admits its candidates on distinct criteria. You could have the 800 GMAT, research experience since you were 7 years old, & glowing, posthumous letters of recommendation from Carl Jung, Kurt Lewin, & George Washington, but one professor on one admissions committee somewhere in the world will say, "Yeah, he's got a solid application, but I just think Lewin got change psychology all wrong," or something else completely arbitrary. You will be rejected, God knows why.

So take this process with a grain of salt. The biggest grain you can find, preferably. Rejection is inevitable, for reasons beyond your control or understanding. Don't forget: the key is to impress just one adcom out there!

(2) Doctoral admission is based essentially on how well your profile addresses this question about you: Can this person conduct high-level academic research? This point is most useful when deciding who should write your letters (professors, not managers), on what character traits to write about in your statement (diligence, intelligence, curiosity), and on what sort of experience you should be seeking to notch on your profile (skip that internship & work in the lab for pennies all summer with your advisor).

The single greatest thing you can do to improve your profile is to have a paper of original research that you authored. Of course, the irony in this is that you are applying to a program which is designed precisely to teach you how to write original research.

(3) Age matters. Adcoms apply a Laffer curve to admissions with respect to age. The age window of maximum confidence for admissions into PhD programs is roughly 24-29 years old.

> If you are applying right out of your bachelor's degree (21-23), adcoms will suspect your maturity, your commitment, & your experience. This is natural. They will also reject your application on these matters with a light heart, because in their minds, you will simply re-apply in a year or so "if you really want to do this".

> If you are in your 30s, they will suspect your ability to commit to the impoverished life of a grad student, your desire to have a family life, your reasons for the dramatic shift at this point in your life. You won't achieve (associate) tenure until your 40s. In general, adcoms worry you about being "too mature", or too set in your ways. It's more difficult to overcome this discrimination, but it can be done if you, say, return to grad school for an MA, make a few academic connections, & so on.

(4) The GMAT is not that important. The GMAT gives adcoms their only "objective" measure of your intelligence. For this reason it has a degree of usefulness. In the elite programs however, I have been led to believe that the GMAT is a non-factor after the initial cutoff of applicants. If you make 700 or better, stop worrying about it. If you make better than 650, you are still probably fine. Your academic record - grades + courses taken - is far more important than the single GMAT score. Want to impress them with your quantitative ability? Get an A in calculus, or some other tougher math course. Increasing your GMAT-Quant score by a few points does not pay dividends.

(5) Continuing that last note, quantitative skills are absolutely essential in every business discipline. Even in the worlds of consumer psychology, organizational behavior, & strategic management, math is crucial. Your record must show - beyond the simple GMAT - that math is no obstacle for you. More mathematical research streams - marketing modeling, financial economics, operations management - obviously require a love of these skills, but this point is not really intended for applicants in those subjects.

===

I hold these opinions with confidence, from my personal experience, from my fellow applicants' experiences, & from the advice of my mentors & advisors. Now that admissions season is over, I'm not going to be very active here, but all the same I welcome differing views or supporting stories or additional content to the points I've made here.

As a fully-rejected PhD applicant for consumer behavior in marketing, I was consistently given two reasons why my application was not successful: my age (then 22) & my research experience (heavy in the preceding year, non-existent before then). If I do the right things... get older & spend the next few years involved in research... there would not seem to be anything preventing my successful admission.

So with that ultimatum, I am returning to school for a BA in a field more related to my research interests (psychology), & after two years I will plan to enter into an MA program, also in psychology. Yes, that's four more years of non-PhD schooling. Good thing I'm sure about this doctorate thing, otherwise this might be seen as a waste of time.

Good luck to you all, I hope this massive letter is helpful for someone out there.

& of course, my full profile (copied from a previous thread):

Age: 22 (now 23)
Program: Marketing - Behavioral
GRE: 770Q / 590V / 4.5W (not submitted to programs)
GMAT: 730 - 48Q, 41V, 6.0W
Undergrad GPA: 3.61 - BS in business (marketing / intl bus mgmt). Public university, top 10 school, top 5 program, graduated with departmental honors.
Graduate GPA: No graduate school.
Research Exp: (1) thesis in marketing strategy (unpublished, but on track), (2) research assistant on 'A-' journal article in marketing strategy (paid), (3) research assistant on dissertation work in marketing strategy (paid).
Current Work: No relevant work experience.
Letters of Rec: Three primary, one secondary. (1) Thesis advisor, marketing strategy professor (tenured), (2) consumer psych teacher, marketing behavior professor (tenured), (3) personal mentor, marketing behavior professor (tenured).

possible_phd · 2009 May 7th, 02:57 AM

I agree with 99.9999% of this. That being said, here are some anecdotal tidbits:

(1) When I sat in on a PhD seminar at my graduate school, I was 25. A second year student in the course was my age, and the two first year students were younger than me. In general, however, I tend to agree with your confidence interval.

(2) GMAT *DOES* matter. I was told upfront that I was almost dinged at a top program because of my GMAT quant score (48), and I had a 750 overall (not to mention I'm in Mensa, so there really shouldn't be any question regarding intelligence). I only survived because my recommender suggested they look more closely, and they eventually changed their minds about me. However, if it weren't for my connections, that would have been an early ding. IT DOES MATTER! We are fooling ourselves when we say it doesn't. Seriously. A 700 guarantees nothing with regard to making a "cut." Back when I only had a 710 and was talking to professors and recent PhD grads about possibly doing a PhD, every one of them asked my score and then kind of said, "Eh... you should probably get that up a bit." Sorry, but it's the truth. There are, of course, exceptions and outliers, but do you really want to roll the dice to see if you're one of them?

joetheplumber · 2009 May 7th, 12:51 PM

I would question the intelligence of anybody who brags about being in mensa...

doctoraldude · 2009 May 7th, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joetheplumber

I would question the intelligence of anybody who brags about being in mensa...

...

possible_phd · 2009 May 7th, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joetheplumber

I would question the intelligence of anybody who brags about being in mensa...

Me too. Luckily, I wasn't bragging.

The OP said the GMAT "gives adcoms their only 'objective' measure of your intelligence," so it was brought up solely to say, "I even had a third party verification of intelligence and was still almost dinged for the score." I wouldn't exactly call that bragging. But hey, haters gonna hate.

doctoraldude · 2009 May 7th, 03:06 PM

@ doriangray - maybe you can save on the two years by going for a masters straightaway (if not psych then there's soc / econ/ math /stat etc) Or maybe you can try landing an RA position in your undergrad univ. I think that might be a better use of those years preparing for a phd ...

doriangray2009 · 2009 May 8th, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by possible_phd

(2) GMAT *DOES* matter. I was told upfront that I was almost dinged at a top program because of my GMAT quant score (48), and I had a 750 overall (not to mention I'm in Mensa, so there really shouldn't be any question regarding intelligence). I only survived because my recommender suggested they look more closely, and they eventually changed their minds about me. However, if it weren't for my connections, that would have been an early ding. IT DOES MATTER! We are fooling ourselves when we say it doesn't. Seriously. A 700 guarantees nothing with regard to making a "cut." Back when I only had a 710 and was talking to professors and recent PhD grads about possibly doing a PhD, every one of them asked my score and then kind of said, "Eh... you should probably get that up a bit."

Perhaps this is where programs with more quant orientation (such as modeling in marketing) veer away from less quant-focused programs (like consumer psych). With my 730 & 48 quant, I was told by three different professors that "you have proven that you are plenty smart", with one professor using these exact words. At one school (not a slouch, either) I had the 2nd highest score of all marketing applicants. In yet another adcom, the professors put all the application folders on the table, with the GMAT printed right on top, & review them in descending order of scores. After this initial review, GMATs are dumped.

So maybe I just need to eat my own words here & reiterate that each adcom is distinct from all the others. Likewise, more competitive programs in quant-heavy subjects may use the GMAT more shrewdly. In the end, I think my personal, romanticized opinion is that the GMAT is not the greatest indicator of research potential & should be used accordingly (read: sparingly) in the admissions process. Too bad I'm not the one making decisions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctoraldude

@ doriangray - maybe you can save on the two years by going for a masters straightaway (if not psych then there's soc / econ/ math /stat etc) Or maybe you can try landing an RA position in your undergrad univ. I think that might be a better use of those years preparing for a phd ...

I absolutely agree, entering into an MA/MS program this fall would be a far more direct path to, & better preparation for, the PhD that I am seeking eventually to attain. But with a BS in business, there are very few relevant graduate programs to which I could apply - maybe a 3rd-tier MBA, or law school (yuck). Neither is good for PhD route. Thus, I am returning for a 2nd bachelor's in psychology & math, where in a year's time I will have plenty of coursework in both to apply for mostly psychology programs, & possibly statistics programs. I plan on getting involved in psychology research before classes begin in August, so I'm gunning for RA work by next summer, which will allow me some flexibility in my 2nd year to research with a number of professors. So goes the plan, at least.

On a brief tangent, I am not the typical business student. This 2nd bachelor's degree is probably what I will consider my real degree once it's completed. Like a good 'BS in BS', I love case competitions & meeting people & talking shop about business ideas. What I do not love are the reams of phony people, the trifling entry-level positions offered to 22-year olds, the meaningless companies, & the inflexible lifestyle. So in short, I really don't mind at all going back to undergraduate studies, & in fact I'm pretty excited about it. I think I'm going to be a much better-prepared applicant in four. years'. time.

longshot · 2009 May 8th, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doriangray2009

Rejected: NYU, Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, USC, Indiana, Minnesota, Arizona State.

I think it's important for future applicants to look at the range of schools you considered. You are obviously shooting for a top 10ish marketing PhD, and that's great, but let's not give the impression that your application was subpar for the great majority of schools.

I feel that most would agree that you could have gotten into a top 50 program had you applied widely over that range.

NewBoston · 2009 May 8th, 04:59 PM

I agree with longshot. One thing I saw in several profiles is an almost obligatory application to many (if not all) of the top 20ish programs and then disappointment when the applications were rejected far more often than not. I am as big an offender along this dimension as anyone else but I got lucky. The vast majority of people who commit to the same bad strategy as me of sending a handful (6 in my case) of application to only top 20 programs are rejected across the board since business schools at most take a few applicants in each concentration.

If there is one take away from this last year, the most strategic approach would be to spread a wide net; much wider than you might think. It is hard to sell yourself short in the sense that it is hard to be over qualified for any program. If you happen to be at the top of the application pool, you simply get better funding offers.

doriangray2009 · 2009 May 11th, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longshot

I think it's important for future applicants to look at the range of schools you considered. You are obviously shooting for a top 10ish marketing PhD, and that's great, but let's not give the impression that your application was subpar for the great majority of schools.

I feel that most would agree that you could have gotten into a top 50 program had you applied widely over that range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewBoston

I agree with longshot. One thing I saw in several profiles is an almost obligatory application to many (if not all) of the top 20ish programs and then disappointment when the applications were rejected far more often than not.
... If there is one take away from this last year, the most strategic approach would be to spread a wide net; much wider than you might think. It is hard to sell yourself short in the sense that it is hard to be over qualified for any program. If you happen to be at the top of the application pool, you simply get better funding offers.

The list of schools is a fair inclusion, though admittedly I was hoping to avoid outing myself so directly.

Probably far too late for that, haha.

You're right, as a PhD applicant in consumer behavior, I was going for broke with my selection of schools, Top 20ish or back to the drawing board. I would caution against "casting a wide net" simply for the sake of "admission insurance", however. Sure, a doctoral graduate from Florida has the same title as a doctoral graduate from, say, Clemson**. But if you are applying for the Florida PhD, I would argue that you're wasting your time applying to a Clemson. Factors such as research intensity (what journals? how much?), teaching expectations (you want to teach? or is it an obligation?), general stress (more prestige = more pressure), salary (related directly to research output), & general lifestyle (jetsetting to conferences? consulting? living quietly around an LAC?). The schools you choose to apply to communicate as much info to the adcoms about your aspirations as the rest of your profile. Then again, if you want a PhD regardless the career path, then you know what you've got to do.

** Clemson does not even have a PhD program in marketing, & so will not be offended at my hypothetical comparison.

2009 May 7th, 01:03 AM	#1 (permalink)
doriangray2009 Going All In! Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 47	Rejected in 2009 - Last Thoughts Rejected too? Sucks, doesn't it? Not to worry. If you're determined to go the business doctoral route, if you're bright enough, & if you're young enough, there is not much in your way to getting in the next time around. I've scattered some of my experiences throughout this forum, but I thought it would be useful for future applicants to see what a rejected profile looks like, to take what I've learned from my personal experience with rejection into their own self-assessment, & to share in the advise of my own advisors for improving my chances in the next round. So here goes. I'll re-post my full academic profile at the end. === (1) There exists NO applicant that will get in everywhere s/he applies. What does this mean exactly? For starters, each doctoral program admits its candidates on distinct criteria. You could have the 800 GMAT, research experience since you were 7 years old, & glowing, posthumous letters of recommendation from Carl Jung, Kurt Lewin, & George Washington, but one professor on one admissions committee somewhere in the world will say, "Yeah, he's got a solid application, but I just think Lewin got change psychology all wrong," or something else completely arbitrary. You will be rejected, God knows why. So take this process with a grain of salt. The biggest grain you can find, preferably. Rejection is inevitable, for reasons beyond your control or understanding. Don't forget: the key is to impress just one adcom out there! (2) Doctoral admission is based essentially on how well your profile addresses this question about you: Can this person conduct high-level academic research? This point is most useful when deciding who should write your letters (professors, not managers), on what character traits to write about in your statement (diligence, intelligence, curiosity), and on what sort of experience you should be seeking to notch on your profile (skip that internship & work in the lab for pennies all summer with your advisor). The single greatest thing you can do to improve your profile is to have a paper of original research that you authored. Of course, the irony in this is that you are applying to a program which is designed precisely to teach you how to write original research. (3) Age matters. Adcoms apply a Laffer curve to admissions with respect to age. The age window of maximum confidence for admissions into PhD programs is roughly 24-29 years old. > If you are applying right out of your bachelor's degree (21-23), adcoms will suspect your maturity, your commitment, & your experience. This is natural. They will also reject your application on these matters with a light heart, because in their minds, you will simply re-apply in a year or so "if you really want to do this". > If you are in your 30s, they will suspect your ability to commit to the impoverished life of a grad student, your desire to have a family life, your reasons for the dramatic shift at this point in your life. You won't achieve (associate) tenure until your 40s. In general, adcoms worry you about being "too mature", or too set in your ways. It's more difficult to overcome this discrimination, but it can be done if you, say, return to grad school for an MA, make a few academic connections, & so on. (4) *The GMAT is not* that important. The GMAT gives adcoms their only "objective" measure of your intelligence. For this reason it has a degree of usefulness. In the elite programs however, I have been led to believe that the GMAT is a non-factor after the initial cutoff of applicants. If you make 700 or better, stop worrying about it. If you make better than 650, you are still probably fine. Your academic record - grades + courses taken - is far more important than the single GMAT score. Want to impress them with your quantitative ability? Get an A in calculus, or some other tougher math course. Increasing your GMAT-Quant score by a few points does not pay dividends. (5) Continuing that last note, quantitative skills are absolutely essential in every business discipline. Even in the worlds of consumer psychology, organizational behavior, & strategic management, math is crucial. Your record must show - beyond the simple GMAT - that math is no obstacle for you. More mathematical research streams - marketing modeling, financial economics, operations management - obviously require a love of these skills, but this point is not really intended for applicants in those subjects. === I hold these opinions with confidence, from my personal experience, from my fellow applicants' experiences, & from the advice of my mentors & advisors. Now that admissions season is over, I'm not going to be very active here, but all the same I welcome differing views or supporting stories or additional content to the points I've made here. As a fully-rejected PhD applicant for consumer behavior in marketing, I was consistently given two reasons why my application was not successful: my age (then 22) & my research experience (heavy in the preceding year, non-existent before then). If I do the right things... get older & spend the next few years involved in research... there would not seem to be anything preventing my successful admission. So with that ultimatum, I am returning to school for a BA in a field more related to my research interests (psychology), & after two years I will plan to enter into an MA program, also in psychology. Yes, that's four more years of non-PhD schooling. Good thing I'm sure about this doctorate thing, otherwise this might be seen as a waste of time. Good luck to you all, I hope this massive letter is helpful for someone out there. & of course, my full profile (copied from a previous thread): Age: 22 (now 23) Program: Marketing - Behavioral GRE: 770Q / 590V / 4.5W (not submitted to programs) GMAT: 730 - 48Q, 41V, 6.0W Undergrad GPA: 3.61 - BS in business (marketing / intl bus mgmt). Public university, top 10 school, top 5 program, graduated with departmental honors. Graduate GPA: No graduate school. Research Exp: (1) thesis in marketing strategy (unpublished, but on track), (2) research assistant on 'A-' journal article in marketing strategy (paid), (3) research assistant on dissertation work in marketing strategy (paid). Current Work: No relevant work experience. Letters of Rec:** Three primary, one secondary. (1) Thesis advisor, marketing strategy professor (tenured), (2) consumer psych teacher, marketing behavior professor (tenured), (3) personal mentor, marketing behavior professor (tenured).

2009 May 7th, 02:57 AM	#2 (permalink)
possible_phd Can't believe it Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 739	I agree with 99.9999% of this. That being said, here are some anecdotal tidbits: (1) When I sat in on a PhD seminar at my graduate school, I was 25. A second year student in the course was my age, and the two first year students were younger than me. In general, however, I tend to agree with your confidence interval. (2) GMAT DOES matter. I was told upfront that I was almost dinged at a top program because of my GMAT quant score (48), and I had a 750 overall (not to mention I'm in Mensa, so there really shouldn't be any question regarding intelligence). I only survived because my recommender suggested they look more closely, and they eventually changed their minds about me. However, if it weren't for my connections, that would have been an early ding. IT DOES MATTER! We are fooling ourselves when we say it doesn't. Seriously. A 700 guarantees nothing with regard to making a "cut." Back when I only had a 710 and was talking to professors and recent PhD grads about possibly doing a PhD, every one of them asked my score and then kind of said, "Eh... you should probably get that up a bit." Sorry, but it's the truth. There are, of course, exceptions and outliers, but do you really want to roll the dice to see if you're one of them? _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ Last edited by possible_phd : 2009 May 7th at 03:12 AM.

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2009 May 7th, 12:51 PM	#3 (permalink)
joetheplumber Eager! Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 72	I would question the intelligence of anybody who brags about being in mensa...

2009 May 7th, 03:06 PM	#6 (permalink)
doctoraldude Within my grasp! Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 140	@ doriangray - maybe you can save on the two years by going for a masters straightaway (if not psych then there's soc / econ/ math /stat etc) Or maybe you can try landing an RA position in your undergrad univ. I think that might be a better use of those years preparing for a phd ...

2009 May 8th, 04:59 PM	#9 (permalink)
NewBoston Dynamic Optimizer Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 104	I agree with longshot. One thing I saw in several profiles is an almost obligatory application to many (if not all) of the top 20ish programs and then disappointment when the applications were rejected far more often than not. I am as big an offender along this dimension as anyone else but I got lucky. The vast majority of people who commit to the same bad strategy as me of sending a handful (6 in my case) of application to only top 20 programs are rejected across the board since business schools at most take a few applicants in each concentration. If there is one take away from this last year, the most strategic approach would be to spread a wide net; much wider than you might think. It is hard to sell yourself short in the sense that it is hard to be over qualified for any program. If you happen to be at the top of the application pool, you simply get better funding offers.

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