Qs From Potential Accounting PhD Applicant

[mjefferson]

My profile:

Undergrad degree: Journalism from second-tier school
UG GPA: 2.98, strong upward trend, was more concerned about school paper than classes
Was laid off 3x as journalism industry is in crisis. Decided to go back to school for accounting. Found a full-time job using my EMT certification that I'd used to volunteer previously.
Took around 50 undergrad credits as non-degree full-time student (pre-reqs for accounting masters program and a few other courses). 3.95 GPA in these. As in all accounting classes. A- in both stats and calc II.
Currently in first semester of accounting masters program that doesn't have any programs or courses for research, though I'm trying to create my own opportunity. Will have 3.9+ GPA in program.
GMAT: 730 (verbal was better than quant)
Age: 28

My interest in getting a Ph.D. in accounting - though this won't go in my statement of purpose - is based on lifestyle and desire to teach. I don't know much about accounting research, which is something I obviously must rectify.

Qs:
1. With my mixed academic record and lack of accounting experience, do I have a shot at some second-tier programs? How do I identify these? I found this list of school placement by program and can make guesses based on school prestige.

2. Some research areas seem to require work experience in that area; others don't. Which don't? If anyone else entered a program without work experience, how did you narrow your research interests? Just perusing the current academic journals?

3. My classes this summer are all taught by working accountants with grad degrees and professional certifications. When I've told a couple that I'm interested in pursuing a Ph.D., they both disparaged most accounting research as too obscure and theoretical to provide any real-world benefit. Is there any interesting research going on in accounting?

4. If one does end up at a non-top program and eventually lands a position at Directional State U. or an obscure private school, is there a huge salary dropoff from the $100k-plus figures I've seen?

Thanks for any replies.

[longshot]

1. Yes, but do well in the masters program to be sure. Your GMAT scores and solid grad. grades will go far in strengthening your profile. I'm not very familiar with accounting programs in general (I'm in finance) but you've figured out the method most of us use to gauge schools. Figure out universities that place into the type of institution you'd like to be a part of.

2. Accounting is a little different because there is a direct professional tie, but cruising journal articles, asking questions on your own, and talking to practitioners are all great ways of finding interesting topics.

3. Most high-end research in any field is too theoretical for direct application by practitioners. Cabell's lists 188 journals in accounting (there are certainly more, but 188 made the cut), so hopefully you can find something interesting going on in at least 2 or 3 (but then again... it is accounting).

4. In 04-05, the last in depth salary review I could find, the 25th percentile of newly minted PhD's teaching in public colleges made $85k. Check the link for more details http://www.myalsb.org/SalarySurvey.pdf . It's not quite $100k for everyone, but it will be by the time you finish a program.

[acup313]

With your profile it looks you could probably get in a tier 1 school, especially if you do well in your Masters program. Though it does depend on exactly what your quantitative score was on the GMAT. You have a good GPA for accounting and you have some desirable classes under your belt. It seems that a second tier school would be good for you though. You have a better chance of getting in with no work experience into one of those, although some still require you to have at least two years. Also, the lower level schools have more of a focus on teaching then on research. So, if you are in it for the teaching going to one of these and then working at one would not require you to do as much research. Also, I fairly certain that the salary is competitive. A friend of mine found a job on the East Coast that requires no research and their salary is right at $125,000 straight out of college.

[umpunk]

Originally Posted by mjefferson

My profile:

Undergrad degree: Journalism from second-tier school
UG GPA: 2.98, strong upward trend, was more concerned about school paper than classes
Was laid off 3x as journalism industry is in crisis. Decided to go back to school for accounting. Found a full-time job using my EMT certification that I'd used to volunteer previously.
Took around 50 undergrad credits as non-degree full-time student (pre-reqs for accounting masters program and a few other courses). 3.95 GPA in these. As in all accounting classes. A- in both stats and calc II.
Currently in first semester of accounting masters program that doesn't have any programs or courses for research, though I'm trying to create my own opportunity. Will have 3.9+ GPA in program.
GMAT: 730 (verbal was better than quant)
Age: 28

My interest in getting a Ph.D. in accounting - though this won't go in my statement of purpose - is based on lifestyle and desire to teach. I don't know much about accounting research, which is something I obviously must rectify.

Qs:
1. With my mixed academic record and lack of accounting experience, do I have a shot at some second-tier programs? How do I identify these? I found this list of school placement by program and can make guesses based on school prestige.

2. Some research areas seem to require work experience in that area; others don't. Which don't? If anyone else entered a program without work experience, how did you narrow your research interests? Just perusing the current academic journals?

3. My classes this summer are all taught by working accountants with grad degrees and professional certifications. When I've told a couple that I'm interested in pursuing a Ph.D., they both disparaged most accounting research as too obscure and theoretical to provide any real-world benefit. Is there any interesting research going on in accounting?

4. If one does end up at a non-top program and eventually lands a position at Directional State U. or an obscure private school, is there a huge salary dropoff from the $100k-plus figures I've seen?

Thanks for any replies.

As an accounting Ph.D. student who is finishing up his dissertation soon and is currently on the job market - I hope I can provide some useful insight.

1 - With your GMAT scores and accounting GPA, I would see no reason you would not get multiple offers. Your list is relatively good (Hasselback handbook is very popular), but Ph.D. programs have gone under a shift in recent years. Up until about 5-10 years ago there were generally two types of programs - those whose focus was on research (the "top" programs) and those whose focus was on teaching. Today, very few programs still focus on teaching - almost all are geared towards research and will expect you to have at least one paper in addition to your dissertation. Still, it depends on what you want to do though - if you want to make 150K plus when you are finished, you should look into programs who have placed well. Some schools - UT-Austin, UNC, Duke, all Big 10 schools, and all Pac 10 schools. Those programs can be hyper-competitive though. If your focus is more on teaching or a "balance" of the two check into the Big East, SEC, or ACC schools.

2 - Work experience would be more valuable if your research focus is audit, tax, governmental, or managerial. Most schools will probably want you to focus on financial accounting research though - so work experience isn't quite as key.

3 - Your clinical professors are right and wrong. Accounting research is what you make of it - if you find it interesting, then you will be happy. If you are looking to change the world with your research, I would try to find another career. We do not cure cancer. However, if you have the Ph.D. (and are doing some research) you can easily earn 50 to 75% more than your professors with just their licenses that you have spoken too.

4 - I cannot see a school ever offering a Ph.D. less than 100K (unless the degree is from a very "bad" school) at this point. I will say the salaries are not nearly as inflated as they were a couple of years ago. Part of that is the current economy (a non-issue for you since I would hope we will be out of it 4 to 5 years from now when you are out on the market). The second issue, is most schools offered those huge salaries with huge research expectations. A lot of people didn't make it, so schools are now trying to find better ideas to improve research other than through huge starting amounts.

A few other points:

- As for the post that discusses making 125K without any research requirements - I would be stunned (and I mean STUNNED) if that were true. I have never heard of a school imposing zero research requirements. I interviewed at a school that the accounting department was not even accredited and they still wanted 2 publications in 5 years. Now what is accepted as research can vary from school to school though. Even for pure teaching schools that have very low research requirements, 125,000 is awfully high and that is certainly not the norm. Of course, salary is somewhat dependent on the location - a school in New York City or Boston will probably have a slightly higher salary than a school in Missouri would just do to cost-of-living differences.

- Getting into a Ph.D. program might be a little more competitive given the job market right now. Generally, when the market is bad - people head back to school. Something to watch out for.

[acup313]

I would say that umpunk's advice is probably all really good. The 125K I mentioned I heard from somone else so it may not be entirely accurate. Even if it is, it is definitely the exception and not the rule. I could be wrong, but I think most teaching schools are under 100K, but not too much under.

[umpunk]

Originally Posted by acup313

I would say that umpunk's advice is probably all really good. The 125K I mentioned I heard from somone else so it may not be entirely accurate. Even if it is, it is definitely the exception and not the rule. I could be wrong, but I think most teaching schools are under 100K, but not too much under.

I agree - it would certainly be the exception. I don't want to discourage anybody though - it is always possible that based on experience, job location, and the market at the time that a teaching school could offer $125,000 (very unlikely). My bigger concern, again, would be the no research requirements. I do not mean to come down hard on you (I'm sure you are just repeating what you have been told), but I don't want somebody going into this career with his/her eyes closed - you will always, ALWAYS, have some research requirements.

Basically there are two types of research. The first is what we term empirical - experiments, models, etc... This type of research is more difficult, published in higher rated journals, and is what "research" schools expect. The second type is clinical (or practitioner) type research. These are usually articles discussing a specific topic with no (or a very small) experiment. Ironically, this type or research is actually read by many more people (practicing accountants), but is not highly regarded at research schools. Generally, all schools make you publish between 2 and 10 articles. Research schools generally say most (if not all) has to be empirical in nature at high quality journals. Teaching schools generally give you the choice - clinical or empirical. Most professors at teaching schools, for obvious reasons, choose to do clinical research since it is easier to publish and less time consuming. In addition, a lot of people like it since you get much more feedback on the articles (since more people actually read them).

Research schools generally pay more, offer more benefits (reduced teaching loads, summer support without teaching, funding for conferences, etc...), and have better reputations than teaching schools. The flip side is that there is generally much more stress involved - if you don't publish to their expectations (regardless of anything else you do for the university), then you will be gone after 6 years when you don't make tenure. In fact, it's not even 6 years at this point - most schools do an evaluation after 3 years and many people are shown the door at this time if it is obvious they won't publish.

At the end of the day though, you will have to publish something even if you are at a teaching school. It's just that the research being asked of you is a lot easier to do.

[EE570]

I am not sure I agree with the two types of research you have described. I think the two types of research are empirical and theoretical. Empirical researchers use data to test theories and find out what the data says. Theoretical work (which I would say is more difficult in general) develops theories to help explain what might be going on and tends to demand stronger analytical skills.

As far as I am aware most people work in these areas (those who would publish in practitioner oriented journals would likely be empirical). The difference in research requirements by schools will likely come down to what tier of journal they expect. Publishing in the JAE is much more difficult than some lower ranked journals.

[umpunk]

Originally Posted by EE570

I am not sure I agree with the two types of research you have described. I think the two types of research are empirical and theoretical. Empirical researchers use data to test theories and find out what the data says. Theoretical work (which I would say is more difficult in general) develops theories to help explain what might be going on and tends to demand stronger analytical skills.

As far as I am aware most people work in these areas (those who would publish in practitioner oriented journals would likely be empirical). The difference in research requirements by schools will likely come down to what tier of journal they expect. Publishing in the JAE is much more difficult than some lower ranked journals.

Maybe, although I think we are just arguing over labels. My definitions were more or less meant to be a beginners guide to the field. I think at this point he (or she) has more than enough info though .

[mjefferson]

Thanks very much for the replies. Really appreciate the breakdown of the different types of research. I'm 2/3 through my first semester of my grad program and doing well. I've looked through the leading journals on a couple of occasions.

Last week I popped into the head of my school's Ph.D. program just because his door was open, and he talked to me about my background and interests. Put me on the email lists for paper conferences and suggested that I audit a doctoral seminar in the fall. He sent me to the professor who's teaching that seminar. That professor grilled me a little about my interest in research and basically figured out that I really did not know that much about it. But he agreed to let me audit and gave me some coursework pointers.

Apparently they've let a couple aspiring Ph.D. students in the past do custom masters concentrations geared toward research preparation, and I'm now in the process of arranging that track. I'll take and get degree credit for descriptive and inferential statistics, advanced regression analysis, and maybe research design - all in the political economy grad department. And I'm going to try and work linear algebra in there at some point.

Thanks again.