TestMagic

dhatura · 2009 June 23rd, 10:01 AM

Undergrad: major English, gpa 88/100 of best chinese university
double bachelor: economics, gpa 93/100 of same university
phd in business: 20th us university, but incomplete for some reason, major IO and minor finance, gpa 3.58, all courses taken, passed qualifying and commenced dissertation writing
GMAT: 790, 5.5
I had to suspend my doctoral studies at the US university in 2006. But I want to apply to top 10 UK and Canada programs in finance this year and get the degree. I'm very clear about my objective: academia.
Worked four years on finance news with an English newspaper before coming to the US school.
Has worked three years as securities research manager with an investment consulting firm in China after leaving the US university.
I have a couple of working papers, some in IO and some in finance. I'm submitting an IO paper to a journal.
Do I have any chance of getting admitted? Do schools dislike people who broke off their doctoral studies?

possible_phd · 2009 June 26th, 07:13 PM

I would imagine that it depends on why you stopped your program.

dhatura · 2009 June 27th, 04:54 AM

There are a lot of things going on at that time......
How does it depend on the reasons why I dropped my program? Can you give me some examples for me to get some feel of it?
Thanks a lot for your reply.

moomber123 · 2009 June 27th, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhatura

There are a lot of things going on at that time......
How does it depend on the reasons why I dropped my program? Can you give me some examples for me to get some feel of it?
Thanks a lot for your reply.

Your chance of being admitted into another program depends crucially on the reason why you suspended your previous attempt. For one thing, you also still need letters of rec and if you supply only letters from your undergraduate and master's level faculty members, it usually indicates a very poor profile to the new school. They will be asking "why is there something to hide about this first PhD attempt?"

You were very near completion in your first attempt. There needs to be strong and compelling reason to assure the new department that you will not bail again easily. Admissions to PhD program is not just investment on your end, the department that accepts you also invests time and resources to cultivate future scholars. It is not only fair, but also prudent on their parts to demand an explanation. I would recommend that you clearly explain the reason why in your statement of purpose, instead of letting them raise the question to you.

Also, for your own benefits, you need to explain why the previous attempt was suspended so they know how many credits can be transferred. You do not want to start from scratch if you are already starting dissertation work.

NewBoston · 2009 June 27th, 08:38 AM

I think the thrust of the post is if you dropped out because of personal reasons which are orthogonal to your academics, then you have a chance, but you need to make sure to explain this clearly on your statement of purpose. If, however, you were asked to leave or decided to leave for academic reasons, like nobody would sign off on your dissertation, then you are in big trouble.

The grey area is if there were personal problems which ate at you, causing a precipitous decline in your scholarly work which ultimately led you to leave. Also, if you were deported for some reason from the US and are no longer allowed back, there may be problems depending on how you spin it and how the adcoms receive it. Since you are being painfully opaque (possibly for good reason,) our collective ability to give you advice is somewhat limited. One observation is that the more clear people make their questions on TM (including background,) the better the answers were on average.

There are a million personal reasons for why an advanced candidate would leave for a time. However, there are only a few good reasons why they are not allowed back in to a previous institution. There are even fewer for why they would choose not to go back if allowed, especially for a top 20 US program.

Trouble with the government is one, but the trouble has to be unrelated to your academic work and out of your control. Administrative troubles are borderline. A perceived poor scholarly potential is bad news.

dhatura · 2009 June 27th, 09:36 AM

My academic records were good, although I was under great pressure at that time.
I was emotionally unstable due to a failing love relationship. The professor I worked for as a research assistant terminated my employment two months after giving me a pay raise. That gave me a lot of financial pressure. I stressed out and posted notes of dirty words in my office. The dean asked me to quit for $7500. I refused to leave because I know I'll make a good academia and I want the phd. Then the school ordered me to stay away and to be suspended for one year. I wasn't understanding, felt being treated unfairly and refused to leave. Then I was picked up by immigration and depoted back.
It has been three years. I sought psychological help for the trauma that the failing love relationship and the suspension brought me. I'm now stable and sound. I'm still sure a phd and an academic career are right for me. I just don't kow whether I still have chances of getting into any phd schools in the UK and Canada. It's really important for me.
I planned not to elaborate on this in my statement of purpose. I thought I would just say I suspended the studies for some personal reason but I'm really into a research career and I'm definitely sure about getting a phd. That's why I'm applying again. Is that good enough?
Thanks for your attention.

NewBoston · 2009 June 27th, 11:07 AM

I think this may fall into the bad news category. As you must know, this community is rather small. If someone at the institution you apply to emails a friend/coauthor/acquaintance at your old institution, there could be problems. Although this may not be a huge issue for an incoming class of 20+ students, when only 1-3 are taken for an average Finance program, you have a problem as most schools really do their homework before sending out admits.

However, all is not lost. There is still the chance a school may not dig deeper into ‘personal reasons’ for leaving. Alternatively, you may apply to an Econ program or some other program with a large entering body where there simply isn’t a lot of time to do complete due diligence for every student. Unfortunately, since you have already done so much at the PhD level, you will still stand out from the rest of an applicant pool and that will bring questions. Alternatively, there are some industry jobs for people ABD in Finance which can be rather academic in nature. Some employers will not be pleased, but others will not care, especially if you get a CFA or aspire to get one.

At the end of the day, I am not on any ad com, so what I say is by no means the final word. You may want to contact a department or two and see what they think about taking someone with your level of preparation. You will probably want to sit down and figure out a few good answers to obvious questions they would ask beforehand. Most importantly, figure out exactly how much information you want to put out there about your situation and how exactly you want to spin it. Do not lie at any time…this is important. However, I am sure you can truthfully relate this story in a way that puts you in a good light. There will be a few departments who take the view that life is too short to make such a gamble. Do not bother applying to them. However, I am sure there are other departments out there who are willing to take the risk.

Finally, you might also look at a few Australian programs where the PhD is a matter of writing a dissertation with little to no coursework requirements. If you could demonstrate you could put a solid piece of research together in a reasonable amount of time, this may be sufficient for such programs.

Good luck.

moomber123 · 2009 June 28th, 03:14 PM

Hi,

I really sympathize with your situation and experience. While I am not in a position to judge, or fully appreciate the nature of the decision to quit back then, I can really understand and appreciate the kind of pressure a PhD program can put people through. It is indeed unfortunate that your first try ended in undesirable manner, especially knowing that you have such a good credentials entering the program.

There are two main issues here. 1.) In terms of gaining admissions to schools in UK or Canada, my opinion is that it is best to disclose a reasonable amount of details beforehand. True, some departments will just reject you outright, but others will be willing to give you a second chance. The risk of being less than forthcoming is that those departments willing to give you a chance still find out, and take that attitude as indication of more trouble down the line. Since you have sought treatment, I really think being honest with the experience is not going to be a deal breaker for all departments. But if you lie about it, or fail to disclose much of it, and get caught later on, they might think you still need more treatments.

Another potential issue is the circumstances of your leaving the program back then. It was not the case that you were asked to leave due to poor performance of psychological stress. You were picked up and deported. That put you in a completely different category. I don't believe US is actively sharing records with UK about immigration issues like yours, but perhaps Canada might be aware of your case due to the long, shared border. Many having immigration issues choose to "hide out" in Canada, and they clearly want to put an end to that. I am not suggesting your case is criminal in nature, I simply suggest you to be more careful about how the circumstances of your leaving US might still have a lasting impact.

2.) I am not one to discourage you to try again. I do agree with other poster that with a solid ABD, many career options are worthy and open to you, but if your heart is on academia, then you have all the rights to pursue it. Just be aware of the implications of your unfortunate situation 3 years ago. It is a rather small community, and even if you manage to finish your PhD elsewhere, when it comes to finding an academic placement, I am afraid your past will inevitably come back to haunt you. If admissions process is tough and due diligence is constantly exercised to make sure the right students are admitted, hiring decision will be even tougher, the extent of background check will be even deeper. More phone calls to personal contacts will be made. And after that, it comes the time for tenure, during which the process is REQUIRED to involve outside scholars, at which time, the likelihood of your history coming up is an almost certainty.

Simply put, you have battles to fight for every major milestone of an academic career. Again, I do not mean to say these things to discourage you. Rather, I applaud your courage and determination to resume the pursuit. But as someone who has experienced most of the prcesses I mentioned, I need you to be fully aware of the disadvantages your history puts you in. I hope you can manage to overcome all that.

dhatura · 2009 June 28th, 03:46 PM

Thank you for the information and suggestions. I'll keep them in mind. Also thanks for preparing me for the future. I know I have an uphill battle to fight. I'm indeed set on an academic career. But it's good to know there are other options in life.

2009 June 23rd, 10:01 AM	#1 (permalink)
dhatura I JUST got here. Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4	2010finance, pls evaluate my profile Undergrad: major English, gpa 88/100 of best chinese university double bachelor: economics, gpa 93/100 of same university phd in business: 20th us university, but incomplete for some reason, major IO and minor finance, gpa 3.58, all courses taken, passed qualifying and commenced dissertation writing GMAT: 790, 5.5 I had to suspend my doctoral studies at the US university in 2006. But I want to apply to top 10 UK and Canada programs in finance this year and get the degree. I'm very clear about my objective: academia. Worked four years on finance news with an English newspaper before coming to the US school. Has worked three years as securities research manager with an investment consulting firm in China after leaving the US university. I have a couple of working papers, some in IO and some in finance. I'm submitting an IO paper to a journal. Do I have any chance of getting admitted? Do schools dislike people who broke off their doctoral studies?

2009 June 26th, 07:13 PM	#2 (permalink)
possible_phd Can't believe it Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 721	I would imagine that it depends on why you stopped your program. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

2009 June 27th, 04:54 AM	#3 (permalink)
dhatura I JUST got here. Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4	There are a lot of things going on at that time...... How does it depend on the reasons why I dropped my program? Can you give me some examples for me to get some feel of it? Thanks a lot for your reply.

2009 June 27th, 08:38 AM	#5 (permalink)
NewBoston Dynamic Optimizer Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 104	I think the thrust of the post is if you dropped out because of personal reasons which are orthogonal to your academics, then you have a chance, but you need to make sure to explain this clearly on your statement of purpose. If, however, you were asked to leave or decided to leave for academic reasons, like nobody would sign off on your dissertation, then you are in big trouble. The grey area is if there were personal problems which ate at you, causing a precipitous decline in your scholarly work which ultimately led you to leave. Also, if you were deported for some reason from the US and are no longer allowed back, there may be problems depending on how you spin it and how the adcoms receive it. Since you are being painfully opaque (possibly for good reason,) our collective ability to give you advice is somewhat limited. One observation is that the more clear people make their questions on TM (including background,) the better the answers were on average. There are a million personal reasons for why an advanced candidate would leave for a time. However, there are only a few good reasons why they are not allowed back in to a previous institution. There are even fewer for why they would choose not to go back if allowed, especially for a top 20 US program. Trouble with the government is one, but the trouble has to be unrelated to your academic work and out of your control. Administrative troubles are borderline. A perceived poor scholarly potential is bad news.

2009 June 27th, 09:36 AM	#6 (permalink)
dhatura I JUST got here. Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4	My academic records were good, although I was under great pressure at that time. I was emotionally unstable due to a failing love relationship. The professor I worked for as a research assistant terminated my employment two months after giving me a pay raise. That gave me a lot of financial pressure. I stressed out and posted notes of dirty words in my office. The dean asked me to quit for $7500. I refused to leave because I know I'll make a good academia and I want the phd. Then the school ordered me to stay away and to be suspended for one year. I wasn't understanding, felt being treated unfairly and refused to leave. Then I was picked up by immigration and depoted back. It has been three years. I sought psychological help for the trauma that the failing love relationship and the suspension brought me. I'm now stable and sound. I'm still sure a phd and an academic career are right for me. I just don't kow whether I still have chances of getting into any phd schools in the UK and Canada. It's really important for me. I planned not to elaborate on this in my statement of purpose. I thought I would just say I suspended the studies for some personal reason but I'm really into a research career and I'm definitely sure about getting a phd. That's why I'm applying again. Is that good enough? Thanks for your attention.

2009 June 27th, 11:07 AM	#7 (permalink)
NewBoston Dynamic Optimizer Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 104	I think this may fall into the bad news category. As you must know, this community is rather small. If someone at the institution you apply to emails a friend/coauthor/acquaintance at your old institution, there could be problems. Although this may not be a huge issue for an incoming class of 20+ students, when only 1-3 are taken for an average Finance program, you have a problem as most schools really do their homework before sending out admits. However, all is not lost. There is still the chance a school may not dig deeper into ‘personal reasons’ for leaving. Alternatively, you may apply to an Econ program or some other program with a large entering body where there simply isn’t a lot of time to do complete due diligence for every student. Unfortunately, since you have already done so much at the PhD level, you will still stand out from the rest of an applicant pool and that will bring questions. Alternatively, there are some industry jobs for people ABD in Finance which can be rather academic in nature. Some employers will not be pleased, but others will not care, especially if you get a CFA or aspire to get one. At the end of the day, I am not on any ad com, so what I say is by no means the final word. You may want to contact a department or two and see what they think about taking someone with your level of preparation. You will probably want to sit down and figure out a few good answers to obvious questions they would ask beforehand. Most importantly, figure out exactly how much information you want to put out there about your situation and how exactly you want to spin it. Do not lie at any time…this is important. However, I am sure you can truthfully relate this story in a way that puts you in a good light. There will be a few departments who take the view that life is too short to make such a gamble. Do not bother applying to them. However, I am sure there are other departments out there who are willing to take the risk. Finally, you might also look at a few Australian programs where the PhD is a matter of writing a dissertation with little to no coursework requirements. If you could demonstrate you could put a solid piece of research together in a reasonable amount of time, this may be sufficient for such programs. Good luck.

2009 June 28th, 03:14 PM	#8 (permalink)
moomber123 Eager! Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 58	Hi, I really sympathize with your situation and experience. While I am not in a position to judge, or fully appreciate the nature of the decision to quit back then, I can really understand and appreciate the kind of pressure a PhD program can put people through. It is indeed unfortunate that your first try ended in undesirable manner, especially knowing that you have such a good credentials entering the program. There are two main issues here. 1.) In terms of gaining admissions to schools in UK or Canada, my opinion is that it is best to disclose a reasonable amount of details beforehand. True, some departments will just reject you outright, but others will be willing to give you a second chance. The risk of being less than forthcoming is that those departments willing to give you a chance still find out, and take that attitude as indication of more trouble down the line. Since you have sought treatment, I really think being honest with the experience is not going to be a deal breaker for all departments. But if you lie about it, or fail to disclose much of it, and get caught later on, they might think you still need more treatments. Another potential issue is the circumstances of your leaving the program back then. It was not the case that you were asked to leave due to poor performance of psychological stress. You were picked up and deported. That put you in a completely different category. I don't believe US is actively sharing records with UK about immigration issues like yours, but perhaps Canada might be aware of your case due to the long, shared border. Many having immigration issues choose to "hide out" in Canada, and they clearly want to put an end to that. I am not suggesting your case is criminal in nature, I simply suggest you to be more careful about how the circumstances of your leaving US might still have a lasting impact. 2.) I am not one to discourage you to try again. I do agree with other poster that with a solid ABD, many career options are worthy and open to you, but if your heart is on academia, then you have all the rights to pursue it. Just be aware of the implications of your unfortunate situation 3 years ago. It is a rather small community, and even if you manage to finish your PhD elsewhere, when it comes to finding an academic placement, I am afraid your past will inevitably come back to haunt you. If admissions process is tough and due diligence is constantly exercised to make sure the right students are admitted, hiring decision will be even tougher, the extent of background check will be even deeper. More phone calls to personal contacts will be made. And after that, it comes the time for tenure, during which the process is REQUIRED to involve outside scholars, at which time, the likelihood of your history coming up is an almost certainty. Simply put, you have battles to fight for every major milestone of an academic career. Again, I do not mean to say these things to discourage you. Rather, I applaud your courage and determination to resume the pursuit. But as someone who has experienced most of the prcesses I mentioned, I need you to be fully aware of the disadvantages your history puts you in. I hope you can manage to overcome all that.

2009 June 28th, 03:46 PM	#9 (permalink)
dhatura I JUST got here. Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4	Thank you for the information and suggestions. I'll keep them in mind. Also thanks for preparing me for the future. I know I have an uphill battle to fight. I'm indeed set on an academic career. But it's good to know there are other options in life.

TestMagic

Free GMAT, GRE, SAT Test, TOEFL practice tests