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akirose · 2009 July 1st, 07:36 PM

Hi!

I am thinking about getting into a phd program in finance at a top 20 school. I have the following credentials:
1) Two degrees (One in economics with honor and the other in a totally irrelevant area) and 3.75GPA from a top private liberal arts college that gives low grades. The economics honor program I went through consisted of writing and defending a thesis (mine was econometrics-heavy), a 6-hour written exam, and a one-hour oral exam with an outside faculty.
2) The math courses I have taken are: Cal 2 (B, a first-year blunder), Linear Algebra (A+), Intro to Statistics (A), Econometrics (A-).
3) I am going to take the GRE and I am pretty sure that I will get a math score that's close to, if not exactly, 800. (Is GMAT preferred by the admission, by the way?)
4) I will have good letters from econ professors.
5) I also had two years of undergrad teaching experience while doing graduate work in a different field (though this may be irrelevant).

Given my math deficiency, do I still have a good chance? Or must I get all the math ready before I apply? I will work my butt off to take care of math either way, but I prefer to get into the program as soon as possible.

Many thanks!

zshfryoh1 · 2009 July 1st, 08:28 PM

As to GRE or GMAT, most of the better (top 30) finance PhD's prefer GRE and some only take GRE while some take both. The lower ranked programs tend to either accept both or only accept GMAT. Take a look at individual school admissions websites. They usually have pretty good information there.

As to math, you will absolutely need calc 3 (multivariable calc) for any top 20 (and most top 50), and differential equations and real analysis are huge pluses and are pretty much neccesary for a top 10 and highly suggested for a top 20. You can take courses in the fall and send your updated transcripts to the schools as soon as your grades are in. Admission committees meet in February or March at most schools, so if you can get in the updated transcripts by the end of January you should be fine. Otherwise you have the necessary lin alg and stats background, though if your intro stats course did not cover much probability stuff, a one semester course in calculus based probability could be useful, though by no means is it necessary for admission as long as you havethe intro stats course. If you get in calc 3 and one or both of differential equations or real analysis with good grades, you should be fine math wise for schools outside the top 10 and maybe even have a shot a top 10's (though a lot of students in top 10's have full undergrad math degrees and often math or engineering masters degrees so your math background is far weaker than theirs, but you would still have a shot).

Your weakness is the cumulative GPA from a LAC. You say you went to a top LAC, but unless you went to one of LACs that frequently send students to PhD programs, the adcoms will likely know little about whether your school grades tough or not. If your professors who are giving you LORs are well known and well published in their fields and emphasize the tough grading at your school in the letter and discuss what it took to get economic honors at your school it will help a lot. Also, if your school frequently sends students to PhD programs, then the adcoms should have a good idea.

If the LAC you went to frequently sends students to top econ PhD's but not finance PhDs it might be good to also apply to some econ PhDs at schools with good finance people in the econ department, since the adcoms might have a better idea about your school's quality and toughness. (The math requirements for a top 20 econ and top 20 finance are similar.)

The teaching experience may help when it comes to getting funding if the funding is TAship based, but will probably not affect admissions much at most of the top schools.

Also, what was the other field you majored and did graduate work in? Depending on the field, your experience in that field may help admissions or may make no difference at all (it is highly unlikely that it will hurt).

joetheplumber · 2009 July 1st, 09:01 PM

I agree that math is your primary problem. Finance becomes highly mathematical at the grad level. They say that calc3, linear algebra, and stats is needed at a minimum. However, in all likelihhod you need more than this to stand a chance at top 20 schools.

In your first semester of a finance phd you'll prob prove black scholes in a class. This proof often uses Feynman-Kac, Ito, PDEs etc...not really trivial stuff and def not stuff you can pick up if you havent seen math past linear algebra.

I do disagree with the point about LACs tho. If the OP attends a top LAC like Swarthmore/Amherst then this is generally viewed as being in the top 20 overall and they often sends students to PhD programs in every field.

akirose · 2009 July 1st, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zshfryoh1

As to GRE or GMAT, most of the better (top 30) finance PhD's prefer GRE and some only take GRE while some take both. The lower ranked programs tend to either accept both or only accept GMAT. Take a look at individual school admissions websites. They usually have pretty good information there.

As to math, you will absolutely need calc 3 (multivariable calc) for any top 20 (and most top 50), and differential equations and real analysis are huge pluses and are pretty much necessary for a top 10 and highly suggested for a top 20. You can take courses in the fall and send your updated transcripts to the schools as soon as your grades are in. Admission committees meet in February or March at most schools, so if you can get in the updated transcripts by the end of January you should be fine. Otherwise you have the necessary lin alg and stats background, though if your intro stats course did not cover much probability stuff, a one semester course in calculus based probability could be useful, though by no means is it necessary for admission as long as you havethe intro stats course. If you get in calc 3 and one or both of differential equations or real analysis with good grades, you should be fine math wise for schools outside the top 10 and maybe even have a shot a top 10's (though a lot of students in top 10's have full undergrad math degrees and often math or engineering masters degrees so your math background is far weaker than theirs, but you would still have a shot).

Your weakness is the cumulative GPA from a LAC. You say you went to a top LAC, but unless you went to one of LACs that frequently send students to PhD programs, the adcoms will likely know little about whether your school grades tough or not. If your professors who are giving you LORs are well known and well published in their fields and emphasize the tough grading at your school in the letter and discuss what it took to get economic honors at your school it will help a lot. Also, if your school frequently sends students to PhD programs, then the adcoms should have a good idea.

If the LAC you went to frequently sends students to top econ PhD's but not finance PhDs it might be good to also apply to some econ PhDs at schools with good finance people in the econ department, since the adcoms might have a better idea about your school's quality and toughness. (The math requirements for a top 20 econ and top 20 finance are similar.)

The teaching experience may help when it comes to getting funding if the funding is TAship based, but will probably not affect admissions much at most of the top schools.

Also, what was the other field you majored and did graduate work in? Depending on the field, your experience in that field may help admissions or may make no difference at all (it is highly unlikely that it will hurt).

Thanks for the reply. According to my LAC, Oberlin, its graduates have earned more PhDs than graduates from any other colleges in the US. B and B- are the most common grades in the courses I took. At the time I got my 98% in the final in Linear Algebra, the 2nd highest grade was 83% and the class average was around 50%. This was not an exception among courses offered at Oberlin. My econ professor once (before I was invited to the honor program) told me that, if I were to go to a b-school for a PhD, I shouldn't consider any thing outside of top 10 -- She had hope for me, but I ended up continuing in the other field, music performance. I forgot to mention that I also served as a TA/RA for 3 years in the econ department.

But multivariable is really a problem. I don't think that I could take a math course this fall as my current music scholarship requires me to take all music courses (lots of them) this semester. I don't think that I can afford to pay for the extra credits. Next spring is very much possible, though.

akirose · 2009 July 1st, 10:06 PM

So I better take Calc 3, Differential Eq., and Real Analysis before I send my application? Will they seriously consider my application for Fall 10' if I tell them that I will take at least two of the courses in Spring 10'? I am generally good at math and can almost guarantee that I will get good grades. But they certainly have to take my words for it.

I just can't imagine waiting for another year -- If that has to be the case for a PhD in Finance application, I would then focus on LSAT now. Going to a law school is also something I am considering and I seem to do pretty well on LSAT.

In any case, I am done with music.

zshfryoh1 · 2009 July 1st, 10:18 PM

Oberlin does send students to PhDs frequently enough, and enough adcoms should be familiar with their program, should so you should be good on that end. The TA stuf will not help much for admissions, but might help get better funding. The RA stuff however helps with admissions though how much it helps depends on your role in the project.

Having multivar calc on your transcript, even as a course in progress when you apply is pretty much an absolute must for a top 20 finance PhD program, and without at least one of real analysis or differential equations you will be an extreme longshot. Admissions for top finance (and econ) PhDs have become much more competitive especially with regard to math background. 25 or 30 years ago, you could probably get into a top 20 finance program with your background, and perhaps even 20 years ago if you had calc 3. Not anymore though.

You might be better off finishing off your music program, then taking the courses in spring and fall 2010 and applying that fall.

What you might want to do is to apply to a few select schools that you would really like to go to this fall and explain to them your situation in your statement of purpose and that you will take the necessary courses in the spring. Sometimes the adcoms take students under those circumstances especially if the student has research experience and shows good research potential, though it is far more common at the lower ranked schools where they rarely get people who graduated with economics honors from an Oberlin level undergrad, and less common at the top schools where everyone (or at least every serious candidate) either has that type of background or if they are from a lower school, a very extensive math background. If you still have time to take a course this summer (some schools have a late summer session) and think you are able to take calc 3 this summer, maybe you could try that.

2009 July 1st, 07:36 PM	#1 (permalink)
akirose I JUST got here. Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3	Questions regarding PHD in Finance admission Hi! I am thinking about getting into a phd program in finance at a top 20 school. I have the following credentials: 1) Two degrees (One in economics with honor and the other in a totally irrelevant area) and 3.75GPA from a top private liberal arts college that gives low grades. The economics honor program I went through consisted of writing and defending a thesis (mine was econometrics-heavy), a 6-hour written exam, and a one-hour oral exam with an outside faculty. 2) The math courses I have taken are: Cal 2 (B, a first-year blunder), Linear Algebra (A+), Intro to Statistics (A), Econometrics (A-). 3) I am going to take the GRE and I am pretty sure that I will get a math score that's close to, if not exactly, 800. (Is GMAT preferred by the admission, by the way?) 4) I will have good letters from econ professors. 5) I also had two years of undergrad teaching experience while doing graduate work in a different field (though this may be irrelevant). Given my math deficiency, do I still have a good chance? Or must I get all the math ready before I apply? I will work my butt off to take care of math either way, but I prefer to get into the program as soon as possible. Many thanks!

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2009 July 1st, 08:28 PM	#2 (permalink)
zshfryoh1 Within my grasp! Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 374	As to GRE or GMAT, most of the better (top 30) finance PhD's prefer GRE and some only take GRE while some take both. The lower ranked programs tend to either accept both or only accept GMAT. Take a look at individual school admissions websites. They usually have pretty good information there. As to math, you will absolutely need calc 3 (multivariable calc) for any top 20 (and most top 50), and differential equations and real analysis are huge pluses and are pretty much neccesary for a top 10 and highly suggested for a top 20. You can take courses in the fall and send your updated transcripts to the schools as soon as your grades are in. Admission committees meet in February or March at most schools, so if you can get in the updated transcripts by the end of January you should be fine. Otherwise you have the necessary lin alg and stats background, though if your intro stats course did not cover much probability stuff, a one semester course in calculus based probability could be useful, though by no means is it necessary for admission as long as you havethe intro stats course. If you get in calc 3 and one or both of differential equations or real analysis with good grades, you should be fine math wise for schools outside the top 10 and maybe even have a shot a top 10's (though a lot of students in top 10's have full undergrad math degrees and often math or engineering masters degrees so your math background is far weaker than theirs, but you would still have a shot). Your weakness is the cumulative GPA from a LAC. You say you went to a top LAC, but unless you went to one of LACs that frequently send students to PhD programs, the adcoms will likely know little about whether your school grades tough or not. If your professors who are giving you LORs are well known and well published in their fields and emphasize the tough grading at your school in the letter and discuss what it took to get economic honors at your school it will help a lot. Also, if your school frequently sends students to PhD programs, then the adcoms should have a good idea. If the LAC you went to frequently sends students to top econ PhD's but not finance PhDs it might be good to also apply to some econ PhDs at schools with good finance people in the econ department, since the adcoms might have a better idea about your school's quality and toughness. (The math requirements for a top 20 econ and top 20 finance are similar.) The teaching experience may help when it comes to getting funding if the funding is TAship based, but will probably not affect admissions much at most of the top schools. Also, what was the other field you majored and did graduate work in? Depending on the field, your experience in that field may help admissions or may make no difference at all (it is highly unlikely that it will hurt).

2009 July 1st, 09:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
joetheplumber Eager! Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 72	I agree that math is your primary problem. Finance becomes highly mathematical at the grad level. They say that calc3, linear algebra, and stats is needed at a minimum. However, in all likelihhod you need more than this to stand a chance at top 20 schools. In your first semester of a finance phd you'll prob prove black scholes in a class. This proof often uses Feynman-Kac, Ito, PDEs etc...not really trivial stuff and def not stuff you can pick up if you havent seen math past linear algebra. I do disagree with the point about LACs tho. If the OP attends a top LAC like Swarthmore/Amherst then this is generally viewed as being in the top 20 overall and they often sends students to PhD programs in every field.

2009 July 1st, 10:06 PM	#5 (permalink)
akirose I JUST got here. Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3	So I better take Calc 3, Differential Eq., and Real Analysis before I send my application? Will they seriously consider my application for Fall 10' if I tell them that I will take at least two of the courses in Spring 10'? I am generally good at math and can almost guarantee that I will get good grades. But they certainly have to take my words for it. I just can't imagine waiting for another year -- If that has to be the case for a PhD in Finance application, I would then focus on LSAT now. Going to a law school is also something I am considering and I seem to do pretty well on LSAT. In any case, I am done with music.

2009 July 1st, 10:18 PM	#6 (permalink)
zshfryoh1 Within my grasp! Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 374	Oberlin does send students to PhDs frequently enough, and enough adcoms should be familiar with their program, should so you should be good on that end. The TA stuf will not help much for admissions, but might help get better funding. The RA stuff however helps with admissions though how much it helps depends on your role in the project. Having multivar calc on your transcript, even as a course in progress when you apply is pretty much an absolute must for a top 20 finance PhD program, and without at least one of real analysis or differential equations you will be an extreme longshot. Admissions for top finance (and econ) PhDs have become much more competitive especially with regard to math background. 25 or 30 years ago, you could probably get into a top 20 finance program with your background, and perhaps even 20 years ago if you had calc 3. Not anymore though. You might be better off finishing off your music program, then taking the courses in spring and fall 2010 and applying that fall. What you might want to do is to apply to a few select schools that you would really like to go to this fall and explain to them your situation in your statement of purpose and that you will take the necessary courses in the spring. Sometimes the adcoms take students under those circumstances especially if the student has research experience and shows good research potential, though it is far more common at the lower ranked schools where they rarely get people who graduated with economics honors from an Oberlin level undergrad, and less common at the top schools where everyone (or at least every serious candidate) either has that type of background or if they are from a lower school, a very extensive math background. If you still have time to take a course this summer (some schools have a late summer session) and think you are able to take calc 3 this summer, maybe you could try that.

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