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Non-Traditional Applicant (Older, Underrepresented Groups, Diversity...) Suggestions


haread

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Good morning.

 

I have wanted to start a thread for some time to collect insights and suggestions for non-traditional Ph.D. applicants. In my case for example, I will be starting my Ph.D. program at the age of 42 with a wife and children.

 

In some cases being a non-traditional student can be both a help and a hindrance. Some programs like non-traditional students as it adds to the discussion whereas others are looking for more traditional applicants to fit a specific model.

 

I am of a belief there is a program for everyone if you only look for it.

 

Insight #1: Cast a wide net

 

This was a suggestion given to me by the Chair of the Doctoral Admissions committee at one of the places I applied to. Their point was you need to play the law of averages. As a Ph.D. student you will need to rely on mentors. Although it is not always easy to identify, applying to programs where faculty can identify with you or where they have a track record and history of accepting non-traditional applicants is helpful.

 

For example I will be attending Michigan State. At the age of 42 I will not be the oldest in the program as there is a student in his 50's currently earning his Ph.D. there. So age was not necessarily an issue.

 

Haread

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Haread, great idea, thanks for starting this thread!

 

If you are part of an underrepresented group (specifically Native American, Hispanic or African-American) then you definitely need to get involved in the Ph.D. Project!. You can look them up on the Internet. They hold an annual conference in Chicago (I attended a few years ago) and it is a fantastic resource to open your eyes to what is possible.

 

They also have a recruitment fair with multiple programs in attendance and it is a great way to build a network both before, during and after your Ph.D.

 

They also have several doctoral students associations (DSA's) for the various disciplines (Finance, Accounting, Management, MIS) that are a great resource. Typically the DSA's hold their meetings in conjunction with the primary academy meetings for the discipline.

 

Check out the website, lots of case studies there, and definitely go to the conference if you have a chance!

 

JuVenaly

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Wow, Haread, I didn't realize that we were in the same boat -- I'm 43 with a husband and child. However, I did not cast a wide net because my attending school was predicated on our staying put geographically. I live in the NY metro area and so there were five programs to which I could potentially apply. A former professor of mine at Columbia recommended that I stay away from any program whose cohorts were (almost) entirely made up of students fresh out of undergrad or with only a few years of work experience. (In fact, he strongly suggested that I not apply to Columbia!) I was surprised by his advice, but I'm glad that I listened. I'll be attending CUNY in the fall, and I think it's a great fit for me.
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I'm 37 with a wife and three kids. I know that some schools age discriminate, even though they are not supposed to. I understand and really don't have a problem with it. However, I have no idea how to find out which schools they are. Some schools list info on their sites about their current students, but many do not. Even if they do, having no older students does not mean that they discriminate. Casting a wide net is about all there is to do.
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I'm 37 with a wife and three kids. I know that some schools age discriminate, even though they are not supposed to. I understand and really don't have a problem with it. However, I have no idea how to find out which schools they are. Some schools list info on their sites about their current students, but many do not. Even if they do, having no older students does not mean that they discriminate. Casting a wide net is about all there is to do.

 

One thing you can do is look at current students and review their C.V.'s and you can cross correlate when they completed their undergraduate to estimate their ages. If they have a few people close to your age then that is an indication.

 

Also for programs you are looking into, review faculty CV's so you can estimate how old they were when they got their Ph.D.'s as that may lead to their bias.

 

Also, now that this years season is drawing down, you can call programs to find out more information. Ask to speak to the current chair of the PH.D. selection committee and get their perspective.

 

Lastly target alumni of these programs, they are more likely to give you direct feedback on your chances if you ask them tactfully.

 

More to follow!

 

Haread.

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What is the point of going for your PhD after you turned 40? I cannot imagine any school hiring

someone above the age of 45 for a tenure-track position, unless you already taught at that school

for a while as a lecturer/instructor before entering the PhD program.

 

Are you aiming at a college position?

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Burger King, there are many reasons a school might hire a 40 year old for a tenure track position and there are many who obtain tenure.

 

I cannot speak for everyone, but my point in obtaining a Ph.D. is to get a tenure track position at a research university. After a successful career in business I realize that there is a gap between the research and the practice side that needs to be closed.

 

Who better to obtain a Ph.D. than someone whose years of experience may lead to keen insight and focus on compelling empirical research that supports the bottom-line? I am being facetious a bit, but to be honest I have a hard time understanding some people who pursue Ph.D. in applied fields with little or no experience.

 

I had originally considered a Ph.D. twelve years ago and opted for an MBA instead, as I wanted to get hands on commercial managerial experience before pursuing a Ph.D. in management.

 

Another thing I am learning is many schools are more comfortable putting experienced Doctoral students in front of MBA and Executive Education students, due to their practitioner background.

 

Bottomline, there are lots of reasons. My belief is my research output needs to speak for itself and if it is solid and gets published, age becomes less relevant.

 

While interviewing I met a Professor who went back to school in his late 40's. While teaching at a Tier 3 or Tier 4 university he published an article that was named "Article of the Year" by the Academy of Management. That directly lead to him getting tenure at a private Tier 1 Research University.

 

So..., never say never.

 

Haread

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If you are a non-traditional applicant, one thing you can do to increase your visibility in the process is to apply early. With the deluge of applicants these days, many schools are already making choices well before their published deadlines.

 

If your application is one of the first to arrive it may get looked at sooner, while there are still very few applicants. Harvard for example conducts admissions on a first come first served basis. So if you are applying towards the end of the admissions season, there is a good chance that offers are already being made, and you may end up in the waitlist pile.

 

Admissions these days are also timestamped. If you apply right on the cusp of the deadline you may be sending a message to the school that it is not a priority application for you.

 

The only possibility is that your application will be more memorable and not get lost in the shuffle.

 

Haread

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If you are a non-traditional applicant, one thing you can do to increase your visibility in the process is to apply early. With the deluge of applicants these days, many schools are already making choices well before their published deadlines.

 

If your application is one of the first to arrive it may get looked at sooner, while there are still very few applicants. Harvard for example conducts admissions on a first come first served basis. So if you are applying towards the end of the admissions season, there is a good chance that offers are already being made, and you may end up in the waitlist pile.

 

Admissions these days are also timestamped. If you apply right on the cusp of the deadline you may be sending a message to the school that it is not a priority application for you.

 

The only possibility is that your application will be more memorable and not get lost in the shuffle.

 

Haread

 

I'm very skeptical as to the accuracy of this advice, and why it applies particularly to older applicants. My sense is that this might help at smaller name schools where they probably dont see the thousands of applicants, but you particularly mention Harvard.

 

I applied this year (and will be starting at one of the top programs) and I applied the last minute everywhere and did OK! Most people I have asked seem to suggest that as long as you apply before the deadline you are fine.

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Cosmokramer, thanks for the comment. Keep in mind every situation is unique. These are general principles and things one can do to maximize your advantage and may not be applicable to everyone. The goal is bringing enough things to bear to increase the probability of being accepted somewhere.

 

Harvard does have a rolling admission for their Ph.D. applicants which is first come first served according to them. So would I have a better shot (based on their comments) applying earlier or later?

 

Well if they review first come first served, wouldn't it make sense for me to be one of the earlier applicants before they have started issuing offer letters?

 

In my specific case, I applied early to a program well before their deadline and received an out-of-cycle admission. The fact that my research interest align nicely with the research of key faculty members did not hurt either.

 

Older applicants may be dealing with many biases and prejudices (ageism, etc.). The challenge in many cases is to overcome the objections sooner rather than later.

 

You may have several A list Journal articles under your belt, great recommendations, etc. Not everyone has this.

 

So each case is unique and the goal is to maximize ones competitive advantage, and leave as few things to chance as possible.

 

Cheers!

 

Haread

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I think you may have misunderstood what HBS said. While they do start reviewing and meeting before the application deadline, they don't have rolling admissions in the traditional sense. They didn't even conduct interviews until about one and a half months after their deadline. Now it may still help to get your application in early in that you might have a better chance of standing out before review fatigue sets in for the admissions officers (though that can cut both ways - it might be better to be later and fresh in their minds), but I haven't seen anything to suggest that HBS fills up the class or shortlist before the deadlines. To the contrary, applicants are routinely shuffled between concentrations and then admitted months after the deadline.
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Chimerical, thanks for the clarification on Harvard, as well as bringing up the point of fatigue.

 

It is like when you get interviewed for a job. You don't want to be the first interview (interviewers are still calibrating) and you don't want to be the last (interviewers are fatigued).

 

To add to the discussion think of it this way.

 

Although as an applicant the outcome for us is an invitation to interview and an offer, their are multiple objective and subjective factors that can (and do) play into the decision.

 

Some schools have all of their applications collated and validated prior to distribution to the admissions committee members. Others review them as they come in.

 

Admissions committee members are people and prone to politics, having their favorite candidates, even backing their favorite "horses" prior to receiving the application, or before the official committee meeting.

 

Applying early is one factor, but it plays into a larger strategy, of what do you do to a) stand out and b) maximize your chances that they will want to interview and admit you.

 

Haread

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Interesting thoughts about timing your app, but I think that a non-traditional applicant (actually, any applicant that has a "questionable" element to their profile: age, u-grad gpa, experience, etc...) would be better suited trying to find an ally within the department. I know that every situation is unique, and having a conversation (let alone, a series of conversations) with a professor is not always possible, but I think that if you can find a prof that you have some common ground with, you can start a dialogue and, eventually, help him/her to realize that the "age" factor is more than offset by your other qualities.

 

I personally think I would focus more on trying to develop some sort of relationship than on timing my app correctly.

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Myndfood, thanks for chiming in to the discussion.

 

Keep in mind their are multiple factors that come into play for every applicant. The goal however is to reduce the potential things that could go wrong in an application.

 

Although there is not typically one overwhelming reason to admit anyone, there can be one mistake that gets you eliminated.

 

I agree with making contacts with the department (a topic of a future post). That in my opinion is key. However based on the seniority or influence of that faculty member, they might be overruled. In a worse case you make it harder for someone to make a case for you.

 

Let's say you have an advocate within the department. The earlier you get your applicant submitted, the earlier they can begin to make a case for your candidacy. Doesn't mean they will be successful however the later in the game you submit, the more ammunition you give to adversarial forces. So, let's take that away from them.

 

The earlier you submit, the earlier your candidacy is in play.

 

There is another reason that comes to mind.

 

Let's say the department feels they only have space for one [fill in the blank] candidate representing an underrepresented group, and yours is the second strong candidacy. Although it shouldn't matter that there are two women, minorities, older students, etc., it might..., and you will never know what biases there may be in the system.

 

So, better to be first out the gate. It's like musical chairs, there are a limited number of seats and when the music stops you want to be in one of them.

 

Haread

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As a non-traditional applicant, admissions committees may not know how to deal with your application.

 

One program told me that they had experience with older students. They had someone aged 33 a few years ago! (Zing! I'm 41.)

 

So although age isn't under your control (and in my opinion should not be hidden) there are many other factors that are and you should think through them. I'll touch on a few here and amplify more later.

 

So what are some things that can eliminate you in your application? Three things come to mind.

Low Standardized Test Scores: You want to score well and be competitive. If you have been out of school for some time then give yourself plenty of time to study and retake the test if necessary. If your scores (GMAT/GRE) are in the ball park and equal to other applicants then this should not be a causal factor to eliminate you.

 

There are numerous online courses and books that specifically focus on Test preparation. You can also pick up a mathematics textbook or a vocabulary book of terms.

 

Inappropriate Letters of Recommendation: There is an ongoing debate regarding the validity of non-academic letters of reference. If you have been out of school for some time it may seem easier to get business references from the CEO, VP or GM. I actually had a former Director write a LOR for me and submitted it to multiple programs. This was a unique case however in that this person has a Ph.D. and is currently on faculty at a major public Ivy.

 

Again start early and work with what you have. I ended up contacting professors that I had during my MBA program in 1998. I used a three stage approach.

 

  1. Re-establish contact and reintroduce myself to see if they remembered me, and ask for their counsel regarding pursuing graduate study.
  2. Followed up with additional questions and clarification.
  3. Asked if they would be willing to write a letter of recommendation for me.

Out of the 12 people I initially contacted, I ended up with six people willing to write LOR's for me.

 

This greatly expanded my ability to pursue Insight #1: Cast a wide net.

 

Lack of Focus In Essay: As an older student with significant management business experience, my presumption was that I needed to clearly articulate why I wanted to go back to school and pursue a Ph.D. in my chosen discipline. This was key. I spent time reviewing journal articles and major research themes in the discipline that I could incorporate into my essays and the value of the Ph.D. to me and the field as an older student. I wanted to show that I appreciated that my business experience did not automatically translate to research experience, while at the same time showing that I was familiar with the academic perspective as well as the practitioner experience.

 

Some schools will require a separate essay on how you might be a strong "Diversity" candidate to fulfill the mission of the university. If given this opportunity use this as a strength and to your advantage. Show why you are the "BEST" candidate and why.

 

These are just a few thought starters and by no means the be all and the end all.

 

I would love to hear from other non-traditional applicants what they though were other reasons or concerns they had that they felt could lead to a quick rejection.

 

Haread

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I am older (not in my 40's) with a GPA under a 3.0. I am trying to bring the GPA up by taking 1-2 years undergrad to pull up the GPA. If an applicant has a under a 3.0 GPA, but has a 4.0 on the last say 70-80 hours, would they be able to get into a top 100 school? Or what options should one pursue at that point: continue their undergrad to pick up the GPA and pick up more math, or get into the masters program and try to work their way into the Ph.D. program of the school they are at through knowing advisors and doing research?

 

Also, any advice on undergrad classes/degrees to pursue besides econometrics, finance general, and pure/statistics math major classes?

 

Thanks and sorry if this is off topic. I will move it if everyone believes it doesn't belong here.

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Hedgie58: IMHO, you'd be better off trying to get into a masters program. And if you're going to take the time to pursue the masters, try to connect with a professor or two in some sort of research capacity. The big thing, of course, is your age. Not that the age is a problem, but depending on how old "older" is, taking 2 years to try to rectify the GPA thing may turn "older" into "too old"--for you as much as for the various programs.
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I'd be mid 30's when I was done with either the two years of undergrad & a master's or one year undergrad and one year of Master's. I had been thinking of doing the two years of undergrad (bring the GPA above 3.0) and doing a Master's in Math, if that would help. The two years undergrad was to get a math major as well, don't know how much that helps vs doing a masters.
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I'd be mid 30's when I was done with either the two years of undergrad & a master's or one year undergrad and one year of Master's. I had been thinking of doing the two years of undergrad (bring the GPA above 3.0) and doing a Master's in Math, if that would help. The two years undergrad was to get a math major as well, don't know how much that helps vs doing a masters.

 

Is the first option either 2 years of ugrad OR a masters? Or are you considering doing both concurrently? What discipline are you looking to go into, and what's your ugrad degree in?

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I currently am tracking for one year of undergrad in Finance, Accounting, and minor in Econ. My BS is Consumer Science. I had thought of extending into a second year to get a BS in Math, and Computer Science. Then follow that up with a Master's in Math. Then apply for a Ph.D. most likely in Finance, but I am interested in Computer Science and accounting as well, so I would like to rule those two (or chose one) out completely before moving forward.

 

My other option was complete one year undergrad and receive a accounting, finance, and econ minor, and have sufficient math for a master's program. Take the master's the following year, and take some more undergrad math concurrently and then go for the finance Ph.d.

 

Any opinions on the accounting vs. computer science if I am only doing one year Ugrad as well as any other advice is greatly appreciated.

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I am very skeptical that you would be able to gain admission to any decent PhD program in accounting,

unless you would be lucky enough to establish a relationship with an influential professor at some accounting

program. It is not like I am trying to discourage you from applying, but you should be realistic about

the outcome of your applications to accounting PhD.

 

This year, many schools had about 120 in their application pool (after GMAT and GPA cut-offs) for 2-3 places

available. ADS pushed the intensity of the competition even further.

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Thanks for the reply BurgerKing...I would rather not waste the departments or my time if it is that low of a probability event. I am mostly wanting the Finance Ph.D. or CS....with the odds going toward Finance. Also what undergrad would be more applicable to the Finance Ph.D. Computer Sci or Accounting?

 

So why such the high demand for accounting this year? Just ads?

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Hedgie58,

 

I am starting my PhD in accounting this September, however I know little about finance. Still, I would think undergrad or master's in accounting

would be more relevant than those in CS if you want to go for finance PhD. You better consult with finance people on that.

 

Again, I would not want to discourage you from planning to apply to PhD accounting. If you would be able to get say 720+ on your GMAT

and achieve a GPA of 3.7 or so on your undergrad or master's, you have a shot. But you should understand that it is a very tough task.

 

If you are in mid-thirties by the time you apply, your age is not a factor.

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