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georgeliu · 2009 August 6th, 06:55 PM

Hi Everyone!
I am applying for Ph.D in Finance for 2010 admission. I am thinking about applying to Stanford, Columbia, and some of other top schools (any suggestions?)

PROFILE:
Age: 22
Undergrad School: Queen's University (two degrees, Applied Econ and Computer Engineering)
Undergrad GPA: 3.6
Grad School: M. Finance from U. Toronto (3.8), Master of O.R. (Financial Engineering), Columbia (3.8)
Grad GPA: 3.8
GMAT: 730
GRE: 800 (Q), 520 (V)
Math Courses: Calculus, Linear Algebra, Discrete Math, Stochastic Modeling (grad), Optimization (Grad)
Econ Courses: Micro (3rd year), Macro (3rd year), Econometrics, and more
Relevant Finance Courses: lots
Research Experience: Almost none, did an undergraduate thesis
Letters of Recommendation: all should be decent. Prof. John Hull from U Toronto, and another Prof. at U Toronto with Ph.D from MIT, and maybe my supervisor at work with Ph.D from U. Toronto.
Research Interests: Quantitative Finance
statement of purpose: It should be good, I am going to spend lots of time of it.
Other: I have worked in industry in a quant role for the last two years (the primary reason I don’t have any research experience is work) and have a few finance designations. I think my weakest point is lack of research. I am not sure about which score I should report, GMAT or GRE, both seem to be good.

Thanks!!! I appreciate any help and comment.

shootermcgavin7 · 2009 August 6th, 08:57 PM

Is your plan to remain working unless you are accepted into an elite school?

Otherwise, you should consider some safeties.

zshfryoh1 · 2009 August 6th, 09:31 PM

If the letter of reference from John Hull is a good personal one and not just a form letter, then combined with your GPA and all the courses you must have taken for those two masters degrees, you should be able to get top 20 and even top 10 admits. At the same time, always apply to a couple of safeties in the 15-30 range. The GMAT total score is a bit low for a top 10, though if your Q score is 99 percentile, you should be OK. With your GRE, a 520 V is also a little low, but not so low that schools will not look at the rest of your app which is excellent. Report whichever one you want, or both, though some schools only take one or the other. The lack of research experience hurts a little, but you have a lot of other things going for you. The one thing that may hurt you a little is that your profile kind of looks like that of someone who is trying to escape a poor job market in the financial world in academia for a few years.

Besides for Stanford and Columbia, also apply to UPenn Wharton, UCLA, NYU Stern. Look at this paper for one set of rankings for finance programs

Hadiran · 2009 August 7th, 03:37 AM

The letter of John Hull itself is enough to give you a chance to top10 if it is strong enough. My friends' experience is that Gmat might be a good choice since its score looks better than GRE(although in fact in the same level). Hass in UCBerkeley, Chicago Booth, Northwestern Kellog and MIT sloan, HBS and Duke Fuqua are other good choices(Also UP UCLA and NYU as mentioned above). Please remember the B-School usually only enroll 3 or even fewer students every year, and so there's big uncertainty. You'd better get some backups.

PS: Is columbia a real top10 phd program? I was truly disappointed with its placements. The same concern might be for UP Wharton.

georgeliu · 2009 August 7th, 12:39 PM

Thank you for all your awesome comments!

I will apply for U of Toronto as my safeties. I figure if I don't get into an elite school in States, I might just well do an elite school in Canada, rather than a 15-30 school in States.

I think John Hull's letter will be good, since he is the person recruited me into Master of Finance (He is the program director) and taught me a few courses. Although he only know me since I started this program.

I am very worried about research exp, is this very important in the application? Would my work exp help if my group is mostly composed of ex-academics? Most of my colleagues have Ph.Ds (one from Cornell), and one of them used to be professor at a Canadian school.

shootermcgavin7 · 2009 August 7th, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zshfryoh1

If the letter of reference from John Hull is a good personal one and not just a form letter, then combined with your GPA and all the courses you must have taken for those two masters degrees, you should be able to get top 20 and even top 10 admits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hadiran

The letter of John Hull itself is enough to give you a chance to top10 if it is strong enough.

Why? John Hull is a smart guy and everything, but it isn't like the OP has a letter from Ken French or Sheridan Titman. While it certainly helps the OP's profile, there are very few things that "guarantee" admission to a top program and I would always err on the side of risk-aversion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by georgeliu

I will apply for U of Toronto as my safeties. I figure if I don't get into an elite school in States, I might just well do an elite school in Canada, rather than a 15-30 school in States.

This sounds like a good strategy. Toronto does not have their placements on their PhD website (that I could find), but their faculty's research output is about on par with a US school ranked in the 30s. Faculty research output is only a rough proxy of PhD quality, of course.

Hadiran · 2009 August 8th, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shootermcgavin7

Why? John Hull is a smart guy and everything, but it isn't like the OP has a letter from Ken French or Sheridan Titman. While it certainly helps the OP's profile, there are very few things that "guarantee" admission to a top program and I would always err on the side of risk-aversion.

Well, do Ken French or Titman recommand people every year? And how strong are their letters? Hull is famous and excellent enough to ensure every adcoms will investigate the applicant carefully and if it is really strong, you might have a good chance(I think i just said the OP has a chance, not guarantee, only god guarantee your finance offer).
Let's face the truth, there are many finance faculty, but not big enough to give many LORs every year, especially to give strong and not "blabla" letters. And so strong LORs from big name are far more important than Econ.

shootermcgavin7 · 2009 August 8th, 02:48 AM

Your statement was much weaker than the other poster, I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hadiran

Hull is famous and excellent enough to ensure every adcoms will investigate the applicant carefully

This statement I agree with.
I think extending it to immediate consideration for a "top 10" is doing a huge disservice to the original poster.

I think Hull is a brilliant guy, but his publication record possibly wouldn't have gained tenure at most of the schools in the top 20. He has six "A" publications in a 25-year publication history (two if you don't count JFQA as an "A" journal, like many schools). You can throw a rock at a top ~70 finance department in the US and hit someone with a similar publication record.

Again, I don't want this thread to be about John Hull's contribution to finance, which I think is significant. Certainly he has made a much bigger contribution than I am likely to have on the field.
I'm trying to point out that a letter from someone who has published twice in the "Big Three" journals in his career may not be as important as others think it is.

I really want this thread to be about the OP's profile. I don't want it to devolve into how significant the accomplishments of Dr. Hull are. So my point is that no single piece of your profile is going to "make' you. I think we agree on that.

Hadiran · 2009 August 8th, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shootermcgavin7

I really want this thread to be about the OP's profile. I don't want it to devolve into how significant the accomplishments of Dr. Hull are. So my point is that no single piece of your profile is going to "make' you. I think we agree on that.

Definitely you are right~ I should confess that my words are a little bit run away from this thread

PS: I havn't read Hull's publication yet, really appreciate your information and I totally agree with your catious comments on Hull's letter.

2009 August 6th, 06:55 PM	#1 (permalink)
georgeliu Pursuit Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2	Profile Evaluation: Ph.D in Finance Hi Everyone! I am applying for Ph.D in Finance for 2010 admission. I am thinking about applying to Stanford, Columbia, and some of other top schools (any suggestions?) PROFILE: Age: 22 Undergrad School: Queen's University (two degrees, Applied Econ and Computer Engineering) Undergrad GPA: 3.6 Grad School: M. Finance from U. Toronto (3.8), Master of O.R. (Financial Engineering), Columbia (3.8) Grad GPA: 3.8 GMAT: 730 GRE: 800 (Q), 520 (V) Math Courses: Calculus, Linear Algebra, Discrete Math, Stochastic Modeling (grad), Optimization (Grad) Econ Courses: Micro (3rd year), Macro (3rd year), Econometrics, and more Relevant Finance Courses: lots Research Experience: Almost none, did an undergraduate thesis Letters of Recommendation: all should be decent. Prof. John Hull from U Toronto, and another Prof. at U Toronto with Ph.D from MIT, and maybe my supervisor at work with Ph.D from U. Toronto. Research Interests: Quantitative Finance statement of purpose: It should be good, I am going to spend lots of time of it. Other: I have worked in industry in a quant role for the last two years (the primary reason I don’t have any research experience is work) and have a few finance designations. I think my weakest point is lack of research. I am not sure about which score I should report, GMAT or GRE, both seem to be good. Thanks!!! I appreciate any help and comment.

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2009 August 6th, 08:57 PM	#2 (permalink)
shootermcgavin7 TestMagic Guru-in-Training Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 571	Is your plan to remain working unless you are accepted into an elite school? Otherwise, you should consider some safeties.

2009 August 6th, 09:31 PM	#3 (permalink)
zshfryoh1 Within my grasp! Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 385	If the letter of reference from John Hull is a good personal one and not just a form letter, then combined with your GPA and all the courses you must have taken for those two masters degrees, you should be able to get top 20 and even top 10 admits. At the same time, always apply to a couple of safeties in the 15-30 range. The GMAT total score is a bit low for a top 10, though if your Q score is 99 percentile, you should be OK. With your GRE, a 520 V is also a little low, but not so low that schools will not look at the rest of your app which is excellent. Report whichever one you want, or both, though some schools only take one or the other. The lack of research experience hurts a little, but you have a lot of other things going for you. The one thing that may hurt you a little is that your profile kind of looks like that of someone who is trying to escape a poor job market in the financial world in academia for a few years. Besides for Stanford and Columbia, also apply to UPenn Wharton, UCLA, NYU Stern. Look at this paper for one set of rankings for finance programs

2009 August 7th, 03:37 AM	#4 (permalink)
Hadiran God light my path~ Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 94	The letter of John Hull itself is enough to give you a chance to top10 if it is strong enough. My friends' experience is that Gmat might be a good choice since its score looks better than GRE(although in fact in the same level). Hass in UCBerkeley, Chicago Booth, Northwestern Kellog and MIT sloan, HBS and Duke Fuqua are other good choices(Also UP UCLA and NYU as mentioned above). Please remember the B-School usually only enroll 3 or even fewer students every year, and so there's big uncertainty. You'd better get some backups. PS: Is columbia a real top10 phd program? I was truly disappointed with its placements. The same concern might be for UP Wharton.

2009 August 7th, 12:39 PM	#5 (permalink)
georgeliu Pursuit Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2	Thank you for all your awesome comments! I will apply for U of Toronto as my safeties. I figure if I don't get into an elite school in States, I might just well do an elite school in Canada, rather than a 15-30 school in States. I think John Hull's letter will be good, since he is the person recruited me into Master of Finance (He is the program director) and taught me a few courses. Although he only know me since I started this program. I am very worried about research exp, is this very important in the application? Would my work exp help if my group is mostly composed of ex-academics? Most of my colleagues have Ph.Ds (one from Cornell), and one of them used to be professor at a Canadian school.

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