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haread · 2009 August 18th, 07:56 PM

Hello Everyone!

My question is I plan to apply to some PHD programs this fall preferably for Organizational Behavior.

I am a mid-career professional (Age-41).

I have a Bachelors (19 years ago), a MS in International Relations(12 years ago) and an MBA (11 years ago).

The BA and MBA are from top Tier schools, and my business career has been in the Fortune 500.

I am not a Quant jock (History undergrad), and to be honest my accounting and finance grades my math skills are the weak link in my academic profile.

I wanted to get people's feedback on the following:

1) Mid-Career Professionals Ability To Get Into Top Tier Programs
2) Can experience make up for weak quant scores (presuming GRE is fine).

Thoughts?

Haread

zshfryoh1 · 2009 August 18th, 08:21 PM

I don't know much about OB, so I can't answer your second question, but as to your first question it is very hard to get into top programs if you are entering older than 40. Top programs, and even mid ranked programs look at themselves as producing researchers, and as researchers tend to be most productive between the ages of 28 and 50 and departments don't want to use up precious resources (and for business fields one of the two or three student spots they get each year) on someone who will pretty much be at the end of their most productive years when they complete the program. There are exceptions, but as general rule this holds for the top and mid ranked programs.

longshot · 2009 August 18th, 08:38 PM

How do you define "top tier"?

top 5-10-50-100?

Just going off of age and lack of quantitative skills I'd say you're a tough sell at a top 20 place. I'd find schools around the 50 mark and see whose faculty is doing research that interests you.

Personally, I'd ask where you'd like to end up AFTER you finish your PhD. I'm at Pitt in finance, and I'd guess our OB dept is somewhere around 50ish (only 5 faculty members). Recent placements are:

Darlene Gambill, Robert Morris University
Brenda Ghitulescu, Rochester Institute of Technology
Raymond Gibney, Penn State University at Harrisburg
Melvin Smith, Case Western Reserve University
Lim, National University of Singapore
Harry Van Buren, University of New Mexico
Olenda Johnson, U.S. Air Force Academy
Miguel Olivias, Clarion University
Tom Zagenczyk, Clemson University

If those kind of placements would make you happy, then that will probably open up the number of schools you're interested in. Good luck!

haread · 2009 August 21st, 08:27 AM

Thanks for your feedback.

One of the reasons I am looking at top programs is where I went to school previously.

Undergrad: Harvard (History)
MBA: INSEAD

I also have an MS in International Relations that I picked up while on active duty in the Navy from Troy State University.

I have worked at Fortune 500 companies such as Ford Motor Company, Visteon Corporation and Motorola Inc.

My belief is I bring a great deal to the table in management and understanding organizations that can be used to bridge the gap between theory and application.

I have a list of 20+ schools that I am considering applying to.

(Current List)
University of Pennsylvania (Wharton)
Harvard Business School
Columbia University
Stanford University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Sloan)
New York University
University of Chicago (Booth)
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
Duke University
Northwestern University
University of California at Berkeley (Haas)
Cornell University
Yale University
University of California-Los Angeles
University of Texas at Austin
University of Southern California (Marshall)
University of Washington
University of California at Irvine (Meerage)
University of Arizona
Arizona State University
University of Maryland (College Park)
Pennsylvania State (Smeal)
University of Minnesota (Carlson)
University of Illinois Champaign-Urbana

Any additional comments you have would be most helpful!

Warm Regards,

Haread

zshfryoh1 · 2009 August 21st, 01:12 PM

I understand why you want to go an elite school, but you will have almost no chance at any of those schools and applying to 20 of them will just be a waste of $2000. You are over 40 which is a big strike one at those places as I mentioned above. You have been out of school for over a decade so personal LORs from academics will be nearly impossible and at those schools LORs are often the most important factor so strike two. You will be coming in with an admittedly weak quantitative background so strike three. High end academic research could have made up for some of those shortcomings, though in all likelihood you still would not have gotten in, but you lack that too.

Maybe apply to two or three of those schools you mention as reaches, but like longshot said, you will only have a decent chance at schools outside the top 50. and will have any chance at all only at schools outside the top 30. Those schools rarely get someone with degrees from both Harvard and INSEAD, so they are sometimes willing to chance on someone with that background even if they lack academic LORs and a formal quantitative background.

longshot · 2009 August 22nd, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zshfryoh1

Those schools rarely get someone with degrees from both Harvard and INSEAD, so they are sometimes willing to chance on someone with that background even if they lack academic LORs and a formal quantitative background.

This is a really good point. Add in your experience with some big name corporations and active time in the fleet, and lots of schools outside the top 50 would be thrilled to get you. I think you may have a chance at some of your listed schools (Arizona, ASU, UCI) but that's going off of general academic reputation, I'm unfamiliar with how competitive their OB depts are.

haread · 2009 August 22nd, 01:19 PM

Thanks for the comments, they are very much appreciated.

I have actually been back in touch with several of my professors from my MBA program that I know personally.

As mentioned letter of reference's are important, so I am beginning to line them up.

One of the more interesting comments I have received back from a professor, is their is a growing tension in the community regarding pure research vs. applicable research.

The reason why is many programs depend on their Executive Education programs, and more companies are looking for applied knowledge that they can use versus theory. The Duke-CE model is a great one to look at how academic career paths are changing.

With close to 20 years of work and leadership experience, this is something I bring to the table that someone in their 20's or early 30's does not.

Age will definitely be a factor at the top 10 schools, perhaps less so at the top 20. Their is a bias that professors do their best work in their 30's and 40's, however their remains a shortage of business PHD faculty, and retirement age is moving out as well.

With several ex professors now teaching at schools such as INSEAD, Wharton, IMD and Duke-CE, I am hopeful that letter of reference's from top academics in the specific field will help to offset the age and quantitative points.

Comments?

Haread

possible_phd · 2009 August 22nd, 09:55 PM

You'll never know until you apply, but your age and weak quantitative background stack the odds against you. It isn't impossible, though. Someone in his late 30's (I think 37) got into Wharton a couple years back, and I think it was OB, but I can't remember, exactly.

Good luck!

haread · 2009 August 23rd, 05:38 PM

Possible PHD- Thanks for the comments.

I have always been of the opinion, you never know unless you give it a shot.

I don't consider applying a waste of $2000, rather a test of my competitiveness.

I am currently reading one of George Foreman's books.

He won the Heavyweight Championship at 45.

He makes the point that you should never count yourself out or sell yourself short.

With careers extending longer, and the desire for applied vs. purely theoretical scholarship, I plan to take the shot.

It may be a long shot, but stranger things have happened.

Haread

PS: Ray Kroc was 52 when he opened his first McDonald's franchise, so don't count us "old-timers" out too soon!

Cheers!

tpb · 2009 August 24th, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haread

Thanks for the comments, they are very much appreciated.

I have actually been back in touch with several of my professors from my MBA program that I know personally.

As mentioned letter of reference's are important, so I am beginning to line them up.

One of the more interesting comments I have received back from a professor, is their is a growing tension in the community regarding pure research vs. applicable research.

The reason why is many programs depend on their Executive Education programs, and more companies are looking for applied knowledge that they can use versus theory. The Duke-CE model is a great one to look at how academic career paths are changing.

With close to 20 years of work and leadership experience, this is something I bring to the table that someone in their 20's or early 30's does not.

Age will definitely be a factor at the top 10 schools, perhaps less so at the top 20. Their is a bias that professors do their best work in their 30's and 40's, however their remains a shortage of business PHD faculty, and retirement age is moving out as well.

With several ex professors now teaching at schools such as INSEAD, Wharton, IMD and Duke-CE, I am hopeful that letter of reference's from top academics in the specific field will help to offset the age and quantitative points.

Comments?

Haread

If you want my opinion, your background is too unique for any of us to be much help to you. I think you just need to tap that network of professors you spoke of, and see if they would vote to admit you or not.

2009 August 18th, 07:56 PM	#1 (permalink)
haread I JUST got here. Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 29	MidCareer Desire to Transition to Academia Hello Everyone! My question is I plan to apply to some PHD programs this fall preferably for Organizational Behavior. I am a mid-career professional (Age-41). I have a Bachelors (19 years ago), a MS in International Relations(12 years ago) and an MBA (11 years ago). The BA and MBA are from top Tier schools, and my business career has been in the Fortune 500. I am not a Quant jock (History undergrad), and to be honest my accounting and finance grades my math skills are the weak link in my academic profile. I wanted to get people's feedback on the following: 1) Mid-Career Professionals Ability To Get Into Top Tier Programs 2) Can experience make up for weak quant scores (presuming GRE is fine). Thoughts? Haread

2009 August 18th, 08:38 PM	#3 (permalink)
longshot Within my grasp! Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 250	How do you define "top tier"? top 5-10-50-100? Just going off of age and lack of quantitative skills I'd say you're a tough sell at a top 20 place. I'd find schools around the 50 mark and see whose faculty is doing research that interests you. Personally, I'd ask where you'd like to end up AFTER you finish your PhD. I'm at Pitt in finance, and I'd guess our OB dept is somewhere around 50ish (only 5 faculty members). Recent placements are: Darlene Gambill, Robert Morris University Brenda Ghitulescu, Rochester Institute of Technology Raymond Gibney, Penn State University at Harrisburg Melvin Smith, Case Western Reserve University Lim, National University of Singapore Harry Van Buren, University of New Mexico Olenda Johnson, U.S. Air Force Academy Miguel Olivias, Clarion University Tom Zagenczyk, Clemson University If those kind of placements would make you happy, then that will probably open up the number of schools you're interested in. Good luck!

2009 August 22nd, 09:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
possible_phd Can't believe it Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 741	You'll never know until you apply, but your age and weak quantitative background stack the odds against you. It isn't impossible, though. Someone in his late 30's (I think 37) got into Wharton a couple years back, and I think it was OB, but I can't remember, exactly. Good luck! _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _

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2009 August 18th, 08:21 PM	#2 (permalink)
zshfryoh1 Within my grasp! Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 385	I don't know much about OB, so I can't answer your second question, but as to your first question it is very hard to get into top programs if you are entering older than 40. Top programs, and even mid ranked programs look at themselves as producing researchers, and as researchers tend to be most productive between the ages of 28 and 50 and departments don't want to use up precious resources (and for business fields one of the two or three student spots they get each year) on someone who will pretty much be at the end of their most productive years when they complete the program. There are exceptions, but as general rule this holds for the top and mid ranked programs.

2009 August 21st, 08:27 AM	#4 (permalink)
haread I JUST got here. Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 29	Thanks for your feedback. One of the reasons I am looking at top programs is where I went to school previously. Undergrad: Harvard (History) MBA: INSEAD I also have an MS in International Relations that I picked up while on active duty in the Navy from Troy State University. I have worked at Fortune 500 companies such as Ford Motor Company, Visteon Corporation and Motorola Inc. My belief is I bring a great deal to the table in management and understanding organizations that can be used to bridge the gap between theory and application. I have a list of 20+ schools that I am considering applying to. (Current List) University of Pennsylvania (Wharton) Harvard Business School Columbia University Stanford University Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Sloan) New York University University of Chicago (Booth) University of Michigan-Ann Arbor Duke University Northwestern University University of California at Berkeley (Haas) Cornell University Yale University University of California-Los Angeles University of Texas at Austin University of Southern California (Marshall) University of Washington University of California at Irvine (Meerage) University of Arizona Arizona State University University of Maryland (College Park) Pennsylvania State (Smeal) University of Minnesota (Carlson) University of Illinois Champaign-Urbana Any additional comments you have would be most helpful! Warm Regards, Haread

2009 August 21st, 01:12 PM	#5 (permalink)
zshfryoh1 Within my grasp! Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 385	I understand why you want to go an elite school, but you will have almost no chance at any of those schools and applying to 20 of them will just be a waste of $2000. You are over 40 which is a big strike one at those places as I mentioned above. You have been out of school for over a decade so personal LORs from academics will be nearly impossible and at those schools LORs are often the most important factor so strike two. You will be coming in with an admittedly weak quantitative background so strike three. High end academic research could have made up for some of those shortcomings, though in all likelihood you still would not have gotten in, but you lack that too. Maybe apply to two or three of those schools you mention as reaches, but like longshot said, you will only have a decent chance at schools outside the top 50. and will have any chance at all only at schools outside the top 30. Those schools rarely get someone with degrees from both Harvard and INSEAD, so they are sometimes willing to chance on someone with that background even if they lack academic LORs and a formal quantitative background.

2009 August 22nd, 01:19 PM	#7 (permalink)
haread I JUST got here. Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 29	Thanks for the comments, they are very much appreciated. I have actually been back in touch with several of my professors from my MBA program that I know personally. As mentioned letter of reference's are important, so I am beginning to line them up. One of the more interesting comments I have received back from a professor, is their is a growing tension in the community regarding pure research vs. applicable research. The reason why is many programs depend on their Executive Education programs, and more companies are looking for applied knowledge that they can use versus theory. The Duke-CE model is a great one to look at how academic career paths are changing. With close to 20 years of work and leadership experience, this is something I bring to the table that someone in their 20's or early 30's does not. Age will definitely be a factor at the top 10 schools, perhaps less so at the top 20. Their is a bias that professors do their best work in their 30's and 40's, however their remains a shortage of business PHD faculty, and retirement age is moving out as well. With several ex professors now teaching at schools such as INSEAD, Wharton, IMD and Duke-CE, I am hopeful that letter of reference's from top academics in the specific field will help to offset the age and quantitative points. Comments? Haread

2009 August 23rd, 05:38 PM	#9 (permalink)
haread I JUST got here. Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 29	Possible PHD- Thanks for the comments. I have always been of the opinion, you never know unless you give it a shot. I don't consider applying a waste of $2000, rather a test of my competitiveness. I am currently reading one of George Foreman's books. He won the Heavyweight Championship at 45. He makes the point that you should never count yourself out or sell yourself short. With careers extending longer, and the desire for applied vs. purely theoretical scholarship, I plan to take the shot. It may be a long shot, but stranger things have happened. Haread PS: Ray Kroc was 52 when he opened his first McDonald's franchise, so don't count us "old-timers" out too soon! Cheers!

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