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young&ambitious · 2009 October 30th, 12:27 PM

Letters of recommendations are typically at the top of list in regards to getting admitted into a quality PhD program. What is the best way to scan the academic community to figure out the key people that you need to connect to?

Staying within your preexisting personal network seems to be the typical path (e.g., working with professors at your undergraduate or masters program and their immediate colleagues), but is this the best approach if you're not fortunate enough to already be within the necessary social circles that the adcoms are seeking?

Another option could be the "six degrees of separation" approach where you know a professor who knows a professor who knows a professor...although this is probably one of the best approaches in terms of quality, it's slow and can completely miss the people you need to for your research interests and prospective program.

Another approach is contacting professors directly and inquiring about research opportunities with them, but then that seems to not yield a lot of results with a million other people asking too. And anyways, how do you know if that professor has the influence within his/her department to get you admitted?

Could looking at the CV of a professor that you're interested in working with in a program and contacting their coauthors be another method? This seems equally as difficult if their in the top echelons of academia and risks going the other direction if they have a negative relationship.

From the our collective experiences on this forum, what is the best way to approach this situation?

Also, name branding seems to be an important contributor in academic "reputation", but often times I've found that some of the top scholars are from obscure institutions. Is it better to connect with them or a faculty member of a "big name" institution? Would coming from an obscure program with "top" faculty members or coming from a "brand name" institution provide you better social mobility once in the job market?

possible_phd · 2009 October 30th, 08:18 PM

I don't even understand the goal here. You want to reach out to the academic rock stars... to get letters from them?

young&ambitious · 2009 October 31st, 12:13 AM

Well, saying it like that makes it sound exploitive! We see time and time again on this forum (and we hear it echoed in the "real" world) that who you get your LORs from are key to your admissions to programs, but that's really not the objective.

The goal is two part: (1) finding the movers and shakers who are making a difference in scholarship for your particular interest and (2) figuring out how to work with them informally through assistantships or formally through a research-based masters or a doctoral program, so that you can learn from them and hopefully make a lasting impact on the body of knowledge yourself (in the long term).

My question is how do figure out who these people are (there are a lot of people who study executive succession, for example, but which ones are truly making the biggest impact? Is publication record the only barometer of this?), and what is the best way to initiate a working relationship with them?

possible_phd · 2009 October 31st, 12:41 AM

The ones who make the most impact are often the ones who have the most citations. I'm not sure of the "best" way to find them, when you're still outside the Ivory Tower of academia and don't really know the literature, but one way is to find recent papers on subjects you're interested in and read the intros/literature review sections. See who gets cited most commonly between papers, and see if the papers being cited are recent. So for example, if you find that 10 recent papers on your subject of interest all cite multiple papers by Prof X, Prof X is probably pretty important in the field -- especially if Prof X's papers were published within the last 5 years or so. Does that make sense?

That being said, the academic rockstars and movers and shakers are also the ones who are least likely to bother talking with you. They're probably way too busy, and if they're going to give anybody their time, it's going to be students at their own institution. I would really advise you NOT to pursue this strategy, unless you have some sort of connection to them (e.g., one of your recommenders is a good pal and can float the idea for you). My gut is telling me that, if I were in the shoes of the rockstar prof and some random guy e-mailed me asking to work on a project, I'd think, "What? Who is this guy? Why would I waste my time mentoring someone who isn't even in the program?" You also run the risk of being very transparent in your motives, which could backfire.

Of course, there are no doubt some profs who would be very open to having someone who lives nearby come in and be a free RA or something. But again, if you aren't able to hit the ground running and offer some sort of skillset, you'll probably just slow the prof down, because he or she will have to mentor you... which they're probably unlikely to do, if you aren't their student. This arrangement is most likely to work with junior faculty, I'd guess, since they tend to be very eager to get a lot of work done and could use any extra free labor.

So to summarize, knowing the important names in your field of interest is definitely worthwhile. It indicates that you're at least somewhat familiar with the literature and that you have done your homework, which is more than can be said for most applicants. HOWEVER, I think your plan of contacting them to hopefully get letters out of them eventually will probably NOT work -- or worse yet, it might backfire. If you really want to contact them, you can give it a shot, but I would advise that you keep it solely in the context of information gathering. Maybe shoot them a line saying you're considering pursuing a PhD, you've read paper X and think it's interesting, and you were wondering if they might be willing to spare some of their precious time to chat with you about some questions you have. The tone should be decidedly respectful, and you should make it clear that you understand that their time is a precious commodity. Any response would be appreciated, but you'll understand if they don't have the time to reply.

Will that lead to a letter of recommendation? No, but if they are willing to talk with you, it will get your name out there, and that could be important in getting your file in front of the decision makers, if you make a good impression. Just keep in mind that if you make a bad impression in the email, it could sink your chances. I was just at a conference where a professor mentioned an e-mail he got from a prospective applicant that sent all the wrong signals, and now that guy has absolutely no chance in the admission process. He wasn't trying to do what you're proposing here, but it illustrates the potentially high risk involved.

All that being said, your ambition is definitely a good trait to have. Once you're finally in a program, that motivation will be what carries you through the rough patches and will ultimately determine how successful you are.

alexis · 2009 October 31st, 12:49 AM

Personally, I'm more concerned with getting letters of recommendations from professors that really know me & my research capability.

I'd MUCH rather have a super strong letter from one of these professors than a super vague one from a famous professor who barely knows me.

possible_phd · 2009 October 31st, 01:53 AM

Yeah, but I think his thought process was that he would possibly be able to get in and work with one, which would lead to a strong letter. I just don't think it's plausible. It'd take a hell of a lot of groundwork and planning, like doing a master's at the prof's school and working with him or her for a few years before getting the letter.

young&ambitious · 2009 October 31st, 01:48 PM

Possible, what you've said is pretty accurate of what I've seen in my short exposure to the academic community (e.g., within my own undergraduate institution, at the Academy, etc.). Does anyone else find it kinda sad that academia is not more collegial in the sense that the professors are not very conducive towards mentoring (which is kinda in the job description)? But I guess that's the economic realities of any social system. As they said at NDSC this year, being an scholar is much like being an entrepreneur!

In regards to my second question, it seems like a common trend on this forum (and in general) is to target name-brand institutions for doctoral programs. Is this accurate or layman thinking? After graduating from a program and on the job market, besides having quality research of your own, is it easier to find social mobility from a name-brand institution or by working with faculty who are at the "top" of the field (either perceived by their peers or most cited)? As far as my very niche research interests, I've found these to be surprisingly mutually exclusive a lot of the time. Most of the "top" professors in my research interest fall outside of the Ivy League, (with the exception of Eli Noam of Columbia, and Thomas Eisenmann and Bharat Anand at HBS). Does wanting to eventually go into administration influence the need to graduate with a name-brand?

chimerical · 2009 October 31st, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Does anyone else find it kinda sad that academia is not more collegial in the sense that the professors are not very conducive towards mentoring (which is kinda in the job description)?

What?? Lots of professors, big names included, invest a lot of time and energy mentoring students in their own programs. They're not "conducive" to mentoring random people with whom they have no institutional or personal connection. There are only so many RA slots available, especially with the big names, and it makes sense that they'd prioritize giving them to students at their own institution, or people who have been otherwise screened or vouched for, rather than someone who just emails them out of the blue.

asquare · 2009 October 31st, 05:21 PM

I agree with chimerical. Reluctance to provide LORs to students with whom they have no substantial affiliation is not lack of willingness to mentor students. Being inaccessible to students at other institutions is not lack of willingness to mentor students. The OP seems to want to network his way into LORs from famous professors, and he/she is definitely not the only applicant to have had that idea. Professors know that game too, and they don't like it.

OP, if your real question is, "how can I develop a successful relationship with a mentor?" then I would suggest the first step is to look for someone who you find genuinely interesting for his own sake, rather than the sake of his reputation, and who seems to have an interest in you. That means someone who knows you. Then, invest time in that relationship, and don't look for a short-term payoff or a payoff that takes one specific form (i.e. a letter of reference or introduction to another person). Be open-minded, observant, and eager.

possible_phd · 2009 October 31st, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by young&ambitious

Does anyone else find it kinda sad that academia is not more collegial in the sense that the professors are not very conducive towards mentoring (which is kinda in the job description)?

Uh.... I think the others have done a good enough job pointing out how ridiculous that statement is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by young&ambitious

Does wanting to eventually go into administration influence the need to graduate with a name-brand?

Sure. It means you most likely won't get into a name-brand program, so it's sort of a moot issue.

2009 October 30th, 12:27 PM	#1 (permalink)
young&ambitious Eager! Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 39	Getting to the Know the V.I.P.'s Letters of recommendations are typically at the top of list in regards to getting admitted into a quality PhD program. What is the best way to scan the academic community to figure out the key people that you need to connect to? Staying within your preexisting personal network seems to be the typical path (e.g., working with professors at your undergraduate or masters program and their immediate colleagues), but is this the best approach if you're not fortunate enough to already be within the necessary social circles that the adcoms are seeking? Another option could be the "six degrees of separation" approach where you know a professor who knows a professor who knows a professor...although this is probably one of the best approaches in terms of quality, it's slow and can completely miss the people you need to for your research interests and prospective program. Another approach is contacting professors directly and inquiring about research opportunities with them, but then that seems to not yield a lot of results with a million other people asking too. And anyways, how do you know if that professor has the influence within his/her department to get you admitted? Could looking at the CV of a professor that you're interested in working with in a program and contacting their coauthors be another method? This seems equally as difficult if their in the top echelons of academia and risks going the other direction if they have a negative relationship. From the our collective experiences on this forum, what is the best way to approach this situation? Also, name branding seems to be an important contributor in academic "reputation", but often times I've found that some of the top scholars are from obscure institutions. Is it better to connect with them or a faculty member of a "big name" institution? Would coming from an obscure program with "top" faculty members or coming from a "brand name" institution provide you better social mobility once in the job market?

2009 October 30th, 08:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
possible_phd Can't believe it Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 741	I don't even understand the goal here. You want to reach out to the academic rock stars... to get letters from them? _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _

2009 October 31st, 12:41 AM	#4 (permalink)
possible_phd Can't believe it Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 741	The ones who make the most impact are often the ones who have the most citations. I'm not sure of the "best" way to find them, when you're still outside the Ivory Tower of academia and don't really know the literature, but one way is to find recent papers on subjects you're interested in and read the intros/literature review sections. See who gets cited most commonly between papers, and see if the papers being cited are recent. So for example, if you find that 10 recent papers on your subject of interest all cite multiple papers by Prof X, Prof X is probably pretty important in the field -- especially if Prof X's papers were published within the last 5 years or so. Does that make sense? That being said, the academic rockstars and movers and shakers are also the ones who are least likely to bother talking with you. They're probably way too busy, and if they're going to give anybody their time, it's going to be students at their own institution. I would really advise you NOT to pursue this strategy, unless you have some sort of connection to them (e.g., one of your recommenders is a good pal and can float the idea for you). My gut is telling me that, if I were in the shoes of the rockstar prof and some random guy e-mailed me asking to work on a project, I'd think, "What? Who is this guy? Why would I waste my time mentoring someone who isn't even in the program?" You also run the risk of being very transparent in your motives, which could backfire. Of course, there are no doubt some profs who would be very open to having someone who lives nearby come in and be a free RA or something. But again, if you aren't able to hit the ground running and offer some sort of skillset, you'll probably just slow the prof down, because he or she will have to mentor you... which they're probably unlikely to do, if you aren't their student. This arrangement is most likely to work with junior faculty, I'd guess, since they tend to be very eager to get a lot of work done and could use any extra free labor. So to summarize, knowing the important names in your field of interest is definitely worthwhile. It indicates that you're at least somewhat familiar with the literature and that you have done your homework, which is more than can be said for most applicants. HOWEVER, I think your plan of contacting them to hopefully get letters out of them eventually will probably NOT work -- or worse yet, it might backfire. If you really want to contact them, you can give it a shot, but I would advise that you keep it solely in the context of information gathering. Maybe shoot them a line saying you're considering pursuing a PhD, you've read paper X and think it's interesting, and you were wondering if they might be willing to spare some of their precious time to chat with you about some questions you have. The tone should be decidedly respectful, and you should make it clear that you understand that their time is a precious commodity. Any response would be appreciated, but you'll understand if they don't have the time to reply. Will that lead to a letter of recommendation? No, but if they are willing to talk with you, it will get your name out there, and that could be important in getting your file in front of the decision makers, if you make a good impression. Just keep in mind that if you make a bad impression in the email, it could sink your chances. I was just at a conference where a professor mentioned an e-mail he got from a prospective applicant that sent all the wrong signals, and now that guy has absolutely no chance in the admission process. He wasn't trying to do what you're proposing here, but it illustrates the potentially high risk involved. All that being said, your ambition is definitely a good trait to have. Once you're finally in a program, that motivation will be what carries you through the rough patches and will ultimately determine how successful you are. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _

2009 October 31st, 01:53 AM	#6 (permalink)
possible_phd Can't believe it Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 741	Yeah, but I think his thought process was that he would possibly be able to get in and work with one, which would lead to a strong letter. I just don't think it's plausible. It'd take a hell of a lot of groundwork and planning, like doing a master's at the prof's school and working with him or her for a few years before getting the letter. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _

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2009 October 31st, 12:13 AM	#3 (permalink)
young&ambitious Eager! Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 39	Well, saying it like that makes it sound exploitive! We see time and time again on this forum (and we hear it echoed in the "real" world) that who you get your LORs from are key to your admissions to programs, but that's really not the objective. The goal is two part: (1) finding the movers and shakers who are making a difference in scholarship for your particular interest and (2) figuring out how to work with them informally through assistantships or formally through a research-based masters or a doctoral program, so that you can learn from them and hopefully make a lasting impact on the body of knowledge yourself (in the long term). My question is how do figure out who these people are (there are a lot of people who study executive succession, for example, but which ones are truly making the biggest impact? Is publication record the only barometer of this?), and what is the best way to initiate a working relationship with them?

2009 October 31st, 12:49 AM	#5 (permalink)
alexis I JUST got here. Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 22	Personally, I'm more concerned with getting letters of recommendations from professors that really know me & my research capability. I'd MUCH rather have a super strong letter from one of these professors than a super vague one from a famous professor who barely knows me.

2009 October 31st, 01:48 PM	#7 (permalink)
young&ambitious Eager! Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 39	Possible, what you've said is pretty accurate of what I've seen in my short exposure to the academic community (e.g., within my own undergraduate institution, at the Academy, etc.). Does anyone else find it kinda sad that academia is not more collegial in the sense that the professors are not very conducive towards mentoring (which is kinda in the job description)? But I guess that's the economic realities of any social system. As they said at NDSC this year, being an scholar is much like being an entrepreneur! In regards to my second question, it seems like a common trend on this forum (and in general) is to target name-brand institutions for doctoral programs. Is this accurate or layman thinking? After graduating from a program and on the job market, besides having quality research of your own, is it easier to find social mobility from a name-brand institution or by working with faculty who are at the "top" of the field (either perceived by their peers or most cited)? As far as my very niche research interests, I've found these to be surprisingly mutually exclusive a lot of the time. Most of the "top" professors in my research interest fall outside of the Ivy League, (with the exception of Eli Noam of Columbia, and Thomas Eisenmann and Bharat Anand at HBS). Does wanting to eventually go into administration influence the need to graduate with a name-brand?

2009 October 31st, 05:21 PM	#9 (permalink)
asquare TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ann Arbor Posts: 1,725	I agree with chimerical. Reluctance to provide LORs to students with whom they have no substantial affiliation is not lack of willingness to mentor students. Being inaccessible to students at other institutions is not lack of willingness to mentor students. The OP seems to want to network his way into LORs from famous professors, and he/she is definitely not the only applicant to have had that idea. Professors know that game too, and they don't like it. OP, if your real question is, "how can I develop a successful relationship with a mentor?" then I would suggest the first step is to look for someone who you find genuinely interesting for his own sake, rather than the sake of his reputation, and who seems to have an interest in you. That means someone who knows you. Then, invest time in that relationship, and don't look for a short-term payoff or a payoff that takes one specific form (i.e. a letter of reference or introduction to another person). Be open-minded, observant, and eager.

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