Meritocracy in placement, admissions or both? Answer: Placement is Meritocratic.

[rsaylors]

Greetings,

 

In this post from years ago I questioned if it was possible to end up well placed out of a T100 school. Today I signed on to be an assistant professor of entrepreneurship at Washington State University in Vancouver Wa (same tenure requirements as Pullman, I am on faculty at the pullman department of MISE, etc.) after attending New Mexico State University. I had good GMAT scores and a marginal undergrad GPA (760/3.0). With that I was short listed at a number of universities, but chose to go to NMSU (despite it having a much weaker package and placement history) to work with a particular professor who I felt a great degree of fit with.

 

In the end the support, mentoring, and general collegiality of New Mexico State University was an amazing garden where I was allowed to grow toward, and was supported in, my scholarly vision. If you know who you want to be as a scholar, are able to seek out the mentorship and guidance of creative people, and are willing to put 80+ hours a week into honing your abilities as a researcher: then it is entirely possible to move up in this field. That said, I am entirely humbled by the offer as I have no doubt that many others were just as qualified for the position and in the end it was the ineffable sense of two-way 'fit' that lead to the final decision.

 

Work hard and carry on,

 

-Rohny

 

 

*****

Original Post:

 

It would make sense to me that the best researchers end coming out of the most well regarded schools because said schools have the best training. On the other hand, it would also make sense to me that the best schools have the best placements because they attract those who are most capable of producing the best work.

 

So the philosoraptor's question is:

 

http://c0016417.cdn2.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/kg2.jpg

 

 

That is: given equal publication records and publication potential, what does going to a top 20 school mean vs going to a top 100 school?

 

A t100 might well make you work harder for your support, so maybe a the t100 w/ similar publications is actually the better student?

Edited October 22, 2014 by rsaylors

[Behavioral]

The best professors tend to be at the best schools -- and their letters carry heavy weight when placing students into jobs.

 

Prestigious schools tend to attract the best graduates -- but we see a really interesting trend happening when schools like Rice and UCSD are so heavily-packed with top researchers because of other factors (location, program culture, etc.).

 

I don't think there's a real way to parse the philosoraptor paradox because we do typically see equitable matchings for top students going to top programs, etc.

[rsaylors]

The best professors tend to be at the best schools -- and their letters carry heavy weight when placing students into jobs.

 

Prestigious schools tend to attract the best graduates -- but we see a really interesting trend happening when schools like Rice and UCSD are so heavily-packed with top researchers because of other factors (location, program culture, etc.).

 

I don't think there's a real way to parse the philosoraptor paradox because we do typically see equitable matchings for top students going to top programs, etc.

 

Hum.. what are placements out of Rice and UCSD like? anyone know?

[Behavioral]

Hum.. what are placements out of Rice and UCSD like? anyone know?

 

Neither has graduated a cohort yet.

 

My statements were about the programs attracting some exceptional programs while still being completely new and 'untested'.

[Behavioral]

But yeah, if people are interested, I would be paying a lot of attention on those two schools in the near future to see how the graduates do.

[phdhope]

Endogeneity! I don't know the answer, and I don't know if it matters. The best schools get the best placements either because they have the best students or the best teacher or both.

[nadasurf]

Sounds like nature vs. nurture restated for academic placements so taking an interactionist view, likely part of it is applicants with incrementally better ability at top schools and incrementally better researchers teaching those individuals. I suppose prestige also plays a large role in academia but I believe that if you're good, then you're good and people will notice.

[joenobody0]

Sounds like nature vs. nurture restated for academic placements so taking an interactionist view, likely part of it is applicants with incrementally better ability at top schools and incrementally better researchers teaching those individuals. I suppose prestige also plays a large role in academia but I believe that if you're good, then you're good and people will notice.

 

I think the bolded part is true, eventually. A good person from a middle of the pack school is going to have to work harder, longer to "make their bones" than someone from a top school. That great middle pack grad will eventually make it somewhere good, but it's going to take longer.

[yangyang2000]

Top schools, at least in marketing, seem to only hire each other's candidates. There have been great candidates (in terms of publications) out of lesser ranked schools who had no chance on the job market for the Stanford, Chicago, Northwestern, Wharton's of the world. Look at some of the recent University of Houston placements/ their vita.

[AppleAndOrange]

Top schools, at least in marketing, seem to only hire each other's candidates. There have been great candidates (in terms of publications) out of lesser ranked schools who had no chance on the job market for the Stanford, Chicago, Northwestern, Wharton's of the world. Look at some of the recent University of Houston placements/ their vita.

 

There is probably some truth to this; however, placement records reflect so much more than the school's prestige or training. I would put my money on a solid researcher from a Top 25 school who can sell his/her ideas over a solid researcher from a Top 5 school who lacks communicative polish.

[rsaylors]

I have updated the OP with an answer to my own question. I turns out Apples and Oranges was correct.

[daffodil5435]

Turns out.....you CAN bend the spoon....Congrats..!!:encouragement:

[wittmic]

Congrats Rohny! You're getting closer to my neck of the woods. I hope you like the PNW! (and if you like anything outdoors.. you will)

[sb29]

Congratulations! Very happy to hear this and it gives me a lot of hope :).

[eventualprof]

Awesome! What great news (after I figured out that you just edited the post today and didn't place in 2011). Are you planning to attend the New Venture Championship in Portland this spring?

 

 

I would think that any entrepreneurship scholar in Clark or Multnomah counties should plan to attend. :) I'll be there. You may be finishing up down South, but if you could plan a visit during that time, I would buy you dinner.

 

Live it up tonight. Big win!

[Indus]

Some of my friends at T50 schools have got job talk calls from several T25, even T5, schools. Two of them don't have any A publication or advanced R&R. Some food for thought!

[isman]

Some of my friends at T50 schools have got job talk calls from several T25, even T5, schools. Two of them don't have any A publication or advanced R&R. Some food for thought!

 

T25 schools may have job talks with hundreds of applicants!! I know an outside T100 school who interviewed like 70 applicants for one position. You do the math for T25.

[AppInfo]

T25 schools may have job talks with hundreds of applicants!! I know an outside T100 school who interviewed like 70 applicants for one position. You do the math for T25.

 

I wouldn't assume that is the norm. Job talks take a lot of time and I can't conceive of how any department could manage hundreds of talks. I'm at a T25 and our ratio is less than 10:1 for job talks to hires. Most of the filtering takes place before the talk. This is pure speculation but perhaps the school you are referring to had so many interviews because it is harder to hire at a lower ranked school since offers are less likely to be accepted.

[wittmic]

T25 schools may have job talks with hundreds of applicants!! I know an outside T100 school who interviewed like 70 applicants for one position. You do the math for T25.

 

Interviews are very different than calls for job talks. (At least if you are referring to a job talk as a flyout.) My experience here is similar to app's, somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-10 candidates for one position. In this case, I mean we fly those candidates out to give their job talk.

[AppInfo]

Interviews are very different than calls for job talks. (At least if you are referring to a job talk as a flyout.) My experience here is similar to app's, somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-10 candidates for one position. In this case, I mean we fly those candidates out to give their job talk.

 

Good point, I wasn't clear in my post above about the difference between the two.

[ArcticApplicant]

Today I signed on to be an assistant professor of entrepreneurship at Washington State University in Vancouver Wa (same tenure requirements as Pullman, I am on faculty at the pullman department of MISE, etc.) after attending New Mexico State University.?

 

Congratulations Rohny!!

 

This really underscores the point that if you're great (read: good + work hard), you're great and will get where you need to.

 

I think at the highest levels of 'great' PhD grads, school brand matters a lot less (as it rightly should;, it's when you get down to the 2nd and 1st quartiles that it likely makes a bigger difference. But I think this also raises the question of the complicated interaction between student and school - how is a good Phd grad a product of their schools - is it the quality of colleagues, professors, or is it that the institution provided the right support intellectually and time-wise that maybe a higher ranked school couldn't? These are the questions that this year's PhD applicants will have to grapple with in Feb/March when they're considering which school is a good 'fit' for them and their career goals.

[henders]

Amen, rsaylors! And congrats on your job!

 

As you know (though I haven't posted much about it on the forums), I'm in the middle of interviewing now, with 4 job talks at very good schools. I am having the same experience as you. I do not go to a "brand name" university. While I was probably competitive at other top programs when I was applying to PhD programs, due to location constraints at the time, I went to my current program (ranked T80-ish). Like you, the faculty were a huge draw. Faculty at my school are doing amazing research and regularly publishing in top journals. Plus, I actually ENJOYED my PhD program. It's not competitive. It's very supportive and I received excellent training. I know it sounds crazy, but I've had a blast as a PhD student. (Unlike Rohny, I've rarely worked 80 hour weeks- so I guess I've been lucky there!)

 

Now that I'm on the job market, guess what? My record matters. Sure, some schools won't consider me because I didn't go to a T20 program, and that's fine. Frankly, I wouldn't be happy at a place that does place such high value on the name of the school. However, at other universities, I know that having a first-authored publication in a good journal and R&R at AMJ, for example, as well as a strong teaching record, is placing me above consideration over candidates at brand-name institutions without these credentials.

 

We'll see what happens with any job offers, but at this point, it's going to be more about fit etc on where I (hopefully) get a job.

 

In summary, Rohny, my experience has been similar to yours. To all prospective PhD students: Go somewhere where you will be HAPPY. Where faculty are doing good research and working with students. Somewhere with good research fit. Somewhere where you can get great training and be well-prepared for life as an assistant professor. Do not, do not, get caught up in the trap of "I must go to a T20 school to place well." It's just not true.

[henders]

Oh and 5-10 job talks per position?! CRAZINESS! I'm sure it happens but I have never heard of that. At most I've heard of 4 flyouts for 1 position. I'm interviewing for jobs that are bringing out 5 candidates for 2 positions. Usually it's 3, at most 4, candidates for 1 position. Maybe some schools with lots of money just do things differently.

[Indus]

T25 schools may have job talks with hundreds of applicants!! I know an outside T100 school who interviewed like 70 applicants for one position. You do the math for T25.

 

(Un)fortunately job talks (fly-outs) are never about math and almost always about potential, fit & consensus within the hiring committee (atleast for management/strategy/OB/OT departments). I am still to come across any school which invited 10 students for job talks. In our field the norm is mostly 4-5 applicants per position. Short interviews at the academy of is a different matter. Best of luck to those on the job market :eager:

[phdhope]

Yeah, schools in accounting normally only invite somewhere between 3-6 applicants per position. Now, there are schools in accounting that have lost more than 3-4 faculty members which have done 20+ interviews to fill multiple positions, but I can only think of three schools who have done that this past decade.

 

I would also urge a little caution in thinking that school rankings do not matter and that job placement is perfectly meritocratic. As noted by henders, some schools will not consider you if you come from too low of a program. However, I think the real concern about going to a lower-ranked school is it is unlikely to have the faculty, the financial resources, and the program to turn you into a high-powered researcher. If it did, the school's reputation would be better, they'd have better placement, and their ranking would go up. I think we could also be confusing university ranking with research rankings and other rankings more pertinent to academia.

 

Clearly at the end of the day, it is more about what your record is in research than where you went to school. But I think we should remember that your productivity is directly correlated with where you went.