tradingplaces Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I have a small dilemma. I have to choose between two offers where one school is lower ranked, friendly faculty, with good placement vs. another school with higher ranked faculty, better suited research interests, but worse placements. I am trying to figure out how much placement is based on the student and how much of it is based on the program. 50/50? Any insights would be greatly appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catguy Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I was in a similar situation last year and I went for the one with higher ranked faculty since all told me that the student is a major factor in placement. The faculty is important for how high you can reasonably aim. Now I realize that it was a good choice... Obviously this a general statement, since I don't know which schools are you talking about.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snickers Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I have a small dilemma. I have to choose between two offers where one school is lower ranked, friendly faculty, with good placement vs. another school with higher ranked faculty, better suited research interests, but worse placements. I am trying to figure out how much placement is based on the student and how much of it is based on the program. 50/50? Any insights would be greatly appreciated! My take is that its 50/50. I'm assuming the rankings are close. If one is top 20 and the other is top 60, well, I don't see how a lower ranked school can place significantly better. Also, how bad are the placements? Do all the students take up positions in lower tier schools? If it's one or two, then consider them as outliers. They could have personal reasons for taking up a lower tier school. About your dilemma, I'd say go with your gut! Always go with your gut.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tradingplaces Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 My take is that its 50/50. I'm assuming the rankings are close. If one is top 20 and the other is top 60, well, I don't see how a lower ranked school can place significantly better. Also, how bad are the placements? Do all the students take up positions in lower tier schools? If it's one or two, then consider them as outliers. They could have personal reasons for taking up a lower tier school. About your dilemma, I'd say go with your gut! Always go with your gut.. Well, the rankings are a little closer than that. It is top 30 vs. top 50. Top 50 school's recent placements are Purdue and Iowa State + non PhD unis. Top 30's recent placements are lower tiers. But the top 30 has much more international students (90%) vs. top 50 has about 50% international students. For me, that won't matter much since I am a domestic candidate. This could possibly be the explanation, or perhaps it is better instruction and training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tradingplaces Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 I was in a similar situation last year and I went for the one with higher ranked faculty since all told me that the student is a major factor in placement. The faculty is important for how high you can reasonably aim. Now I realize that it was a good choice... Obviously this a general statement, since I don't know which schools are you talking about.... Thanks Catguy. I have a few days to decide... it is pretty tough, because every new piece of information I find, it makes me completely change my mind. I know it may seem somewhat petty since its not like I am talking about top 5 vs. top 20 schools here, but its still very important to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snickers Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Top 50 school's recent placements are Purdue and Iowa State + non PhD unis. Top 30's recent placements are lower tiers. Those placements are impressive. I guess you could go back a couple of years and consider those placements too? I agree with Catguy that research fit is probably a little more important than placements. If you are passionate about the questions you ask, you would technically be happier in the program. Did you get a chance to interact with the current Phd students? That may help. I know it may seem somewhat petty since its not like I am talking about top 5 vs. top 20 schools here, but its still very important to me. It's totally not petty. Don't let anyone let you feel this way. It is definitely an important decision and you should be gather as much info as possible. Good luck :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tradingplaces Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share Posted March 6, 2014 Those placements are impressive. I guess you could go back a couple of years and consider those placements too? I agree with Catguy that research fit is probably a little more important than placements. If you are passionate about the questions you ask, you would technically be happier in the program. Did you get a chance to interact with the current Phd students? That may help. Yes, I had a chance to speak with or hang out with PhD students from both schools. They all seemed really cool, and it seemed like they would probably rather go to the higher ranked school. hehe its okay about the obsession with ranking. I have some "going against the grain" research ideas that I want to publish later, so I don't care about ranking that much, I am going to swim on my own no matter what. I just don't want the school's name to make it harder to swim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catguy Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Well, the rankings are a little closer than that. It is top 30 vs. top 50. Top 50 school's recent placements are Purdue and Iowa State + non PhD unis. Top 30's recent placements are lower tiers. But the top 30 has much more international students (90%) vs. top 50 has about 50% international students. For me, that won't matter much since I am a domestic candidate. This could possibly be the explanation, or perhaps it is better instruction and training. I'm trying to find out which are the two universities. There're only two universities that placed recently finance APs at both Purdue and Iowa State: one is definitely not t50, the other one is a former t30 (now t50). If the university is the one I think, it does not really have a great reputation in terms of attrition rate. On the other hand, I can only think about one t30 university with a bad placement. And I don't know anything about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaSvoboden Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Placements are really useful data, but they are such a small sample and going back a few years is creates a pretty significant lag on who was actually there for that student. I would say that if you have high ranking faculty with similar research interests to yourself, you are more likely to place well coming from there than the other school. It sounds like you want to go to the higher ranked one honestly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindrew Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I would say that if you have high ranking faculty with similar research interests to yourself, you are more likely to place well coming from there than the other school. I agree with YaSvoboden. The program with high ranking faculty with similar research interests to yourself probably has the best chance of developing your potential as an academic researcher. I would go with the T30 program and not the T50 program, even with the knowledge that Top 50 has better placements. When you mentioned that the top 30 school has more international students, I do think this has an impact on placement. Some international students prefer to go back to their home country either because they are more comfortable there, or because they have family there. Others may have difficulty due to work status and obtaining work permits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catguy Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 what bother me is that the t50 school I'm thinking about has some very good faculty, even better than the t30 I'm thinking about. But, maybe, I'm thinking about the wrong schools.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaSvoboden Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 When you mentioned that the top 30 school has more international students, I do think this has an impact on placement. Some international students prefer to go back to their home country either because they are more comfortable there, or because they have family there. Others may have difficulty due to work status and obtaining work permits. Also, in highly quantitative programs, some schools will put a higher emphasis on math background than relevant coursework/institutional knowledge that lead to interesting ideas, or higher on math relative to English speaking ability, which is a factor in placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ald Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 what bother me is that the t50 school I'm thinking about has some very good faculty, even better than the t30 I'm thinking about. But, maybe, I'm thinking about the wrong schools.... If the t50 has better faculty, you might want to confirm that the rankings you're thinking about are the right ones to consider. MBA rankings are not the same as PhD rankings, and some "t50" MBA schools are world-class research schools, and some higher ranked MBA schools aren't really known for their PhD programs (or may not even have one, or it could be newer with no real research identity). The same warning can apply when considering placements. I'd recommend asking current 5th/6th years where they are getting job talks for a much larger sample of schools interested in hiring (can multiply your [recent] sample size by 10x, and being a better reflecting of school reputation and faculty lobbying, instead of individual ability, which can lead to poor placement despite strong interest in hiring from the school). Recent interest is also important because some schools can develop a reputation for being on the move, up or down, and the lag in placements can make that hard to identify. Some schools are also very selective about which placements they list, going back a long time, omitting less interesting placements, or ignoring total academic placement rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaSvoboden Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Last year I was torn between two schools and it was getting pretty late in the game. I decided on one, told my wife and just sat on the decision for a day to see how I felt. I really wasn't happy with the decision after a couple days so I switched and did the same thing with the other school. I was much more at peace with that and ended up deciding. on the second school. It sounds like you are torn between two good options. As others said on here, go with your gut. The above method helped me figure out my gut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catguy Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) I use the ASU ranking Just to be clear, I think that: - the t50 is Rochester since it is the only school that placed recently at both Purdue and Iowa State (besides Oklahoma that is not t50) - the t30 is ASU itself since it is the only t30 I can think about with really worse placements. Obviously i don't want the OP to reveal him/herself. Just know that my previous comments correspond to these universities.... Edited March 6, 2014 by Catguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot22 Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 OP, would you consider posting your stats in the forum at some point. There are plenty of people who post profiles and intend on going to T30 or T50, but not a lot who go to T100 (like Oklahoma). I am not saying that you are referencing Oklahoma, but if you are it would be a really great data point for folks in my position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myself Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I use the ASU ranking Just to be clear, I think that: - the t50 is Rochester since it is the only school that placed recently at both Purdue and Iowa State (besides Oklahoma that is not t50) - the t30 is ASU itself since it is the only t30 I can think about with really worse placements. Obviously i don't want the OP to reveal him/herself. Just know that my previous comments correspond to these universities.... Rochester is one of these low ranked MBA programs which is extremely good in PHD placement/teaching. In some areas like finance and accounting they consistently place people to top schools. In other areas they do it from time to time. Which area are you in? Although I would think that Rochester beats ASU in any area when it comes to PhD placement... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catguy Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Rochester is one of these low ranked MBA programs which is extremely good in PHD placement/teaching. In some areas like finance and accounting they consistently place people to top schools. In other areas they do it from time to time. Which area are you in? Although I would think that Rochester beats ASU in any area when it comes to PhD placement... Rochester is quite good in finance. But the attrition rate is too high... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tradingplaces Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 I use the ASU ranking Just to be clear, I think that: - the t50 is Rochester since it is the only school that placed recently at both Purdue and Iowa State (besides Oklahoma that is not t50) - the t30 is ASU itself since it is the only t30 I can think about with really worse placements. Obviously i don't want the OP to reveal him/herself. Just know that my previous comments correspond to these universities.... I used the UTD rankings by journal in the past 5 years. I dont know if that is accurate or slight hyperbole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tradingplaces Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 I had another question how would you pick between 1) tier 1 university (very high intensive) with historical prestige but no star professors 2) tier 2 university ( high intensive) with star professors and improving ranking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tradingplaces Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 My LOR, who is tenured and well known, told me to go with 2) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tradingplaces Posted March 7, 2014 Author Share Posted March 7, 2014 OP, would you consider posting your stats in the forum at some point. There are plenty of people who post profiles and intend on going to T30 or T50, but not a lot who go to T100 (like Oklahoma). I am not saying that you are referencing Oklahoma, but if you are it would be a really great data point for folks in my position. I will post my stats. I literally knew squat 4 months ago, so i totally sympathize, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindrew Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I had another question how would you pick between 1) tier 1 university (very high intensive) with historical prestige but no star professors 2) tier 2 university ( high intensive) with star professors and improving ranking. I think people will argue for either one based on various reasons such as network, placement, publication rate, quality of doctoral studies, etc. and there is really no wrong answer. I'd say it depends on what you are looking for. If a star professor means they are very good at research and getting published, I personally would rather choose tier 2 with star professors and improving ranking if all else is equal. I'd rather work with professors that are wanting and willing to work with me towards being research/publication ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XanthusARES Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I think people will argue for either one based on various reasons such as network, placement, publication rate, quality of doctoral studies, etc. and there is really no wrong answer. I'd say it depends on what you are looking for. If a star professor means they are very good at research and getting published, I personally would rather choose tier 2 with star professors and improving ranking if all else is equal. I'd rather work with professors that are wanting and willing to work with me towards being research/publication ready. ^ This is what I would do. Although there will be a concern that everyone will want to work with the stars thus making it more difficult to get in with them, but I would still choose that school. As the merits of placement vs ranking has been beat to death on here, I will simply state my opinion. Top 5 recruit from top 5, almost exclusively. However outside of that the lines get fuzzy and if you have a really solid adviser with great pubs, you'll have a chance at a great TT job afterward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsaylors Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 My take is that its 50/50. I'm assuming the rankings are close. If one is top 20 and the other is top 60, well, I don't see how a lower ranked school can place significantly better. Also, how bad are the placements? Do all the students take up positions in lower tier schools? If it's one or two, then consider them as outliers. They could have personal reasons for taking up a lower tier school. About your dilemma, I'd say go with your gut! Always go with your gut.. Unless your gut stinks. These decisions are about limiting your cognitive dissonance; do what feels right... unless you don't believe in doing what feels right, if that's the case create a weighted set of values in excel and then attribute scores to each university. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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