Changing Programs

[GreggM]

Hi Everyone,

 

I am new at posting here but I've been lurking for quite a while! I've decided to make this post as I am facing a conundrum right now and from what I've seen here, all of you are very knowledgeable and provide fair enough comments and thoughts.

 

I am a second year student at a top B school in Europe. I decided to pursue a PhD because I really enjoy research and teaching (no matter how hard, time consuming and frustrating it can get, I still manage to keep up and end-up enjoying it). I decided to come to my current program based solely on rankings, fair fit with my research interest and the impression that the program was similar to US schools, however, now I have come to realize that the academic culture of the program is not a good fit for me and it has actually affected my performance (I am still above average the cohort, yet not to my usual standards). When I say academic culture I am referring to mentorship, involvement with faculty early-on, "general approach" and other things I really would not like to mention here. In summary, so far, I have discussed this with former professors from the US and Europe, and friends who are doing their PhD's in the US, and even when of course you will face difficulties everywhere, all of them have recommended me to apply to US programs.

 

I have a highly quantitative Master of Science from a top 25 US university (top 10 school, not B school but highly related) where I graduated top of the class, 88 percentile in the quantitative section of the GRE, about 8 years of work experience (which includes some teaching and managing international projects - a big one related to entrepreneurship in developing countries), almost 1 year of RA experience in the US, at least two very strong recommendations from US professors (not B professors, but a fairly known economist (this would be a quant and research recommendation) and a well known political scientist (this would be a research and analytic skills recommendation)), I could get a third very strong one from my former boss (Phd from Cornell and Stanford alumnus).

 

My research interests are: Strategy and entrepreneurship.

 

I don't mind hard work and long hours as long as there is a point to it!

 

Sorry for the long story. My question here is: Do you think there is a chance for me to be accepted at a US program (in the top 50 range) given I am already at a European program?

 

Thanks in advance for any comments or advice!

[YaSvoboden]

I think it could be a problem if you don't secure at least one letter from your current program.

 

Everything you have posted seems fine, you just need to convince a committee that you are leaving to their program for a decent reason. Also, nothing about performance in your current program would be worrisome.

[GreggM]

Thanks for your reply YaSvoboden,

 

This is actually one big problem with the current program, given that you basically don't interact with faculty beyond just going to class and passing the exam. Given this, not sure if it would be possible to get a good letter from someone just because I did good at his/her class (on the other hand, wouldn't they get upset because someone wants to apply to another school?).

 

What do you think about leaving the program now, getting a job and applying without been enrolled? (or maybe should I just hope things will be better after the third year?).

[Indus]

Hello: Try to get in touch with "Syous". He went through the same process last year and managed a T10 school

[sb29]

This is possible and I know people who changed programs. There are schools which give you course waivers when you move. I'm sure they did not need an LoR from their initial programs.

 

However, I had an European school admit last year and got to speak to many students. It seems that in many schools, the coursework load is very heavy during the first two years. Sometimes they give you a masters degree as well after the first 2 years. There were students who couldn't start their own projects until they were well into their second year of PhD. Talk to some advanced students in your program and see if they get to interact with their advisors on a regular basis. Another way would be to start projects with well published professors from other schools in your area.

[tm_associate]

People have good comments so far...

 

It is likely that some of your credits will transfer as electives to another program, though there may be a cap of how many they can accept... You may have to go through the entire core curriculum at whatever institution you land at afterwards... in essense, you wouldn't be picking up where you stopped in your current program, but may have to take a few steps back...

 

Other then that, I think if you apply and have a clear SOP of why you are making this change, and why now, then I believe your training thus far should give you good grounding to the adcoms that this is what you want to do.

 

Best of luck.

[GreggM]

Thanks everyone for your help, I highly appreciate it!

 

I actually don't mind that much having to start over again and I understand why this would be required. Indus, I will send an email to Syous, however I see he/she haven't been active lately.

 

Sb29, that is exactly how I feel...like going through a high level master but I honestly don't feel like a PhD. I've talked to older students and all of them told me they didn't start real work until mid third year (some were candid to say that they think the first two years were actually worthless and that they actually feel at disadvantage against other programs), some started earlier but were natives from the country that had strong relationships with faculty prior to starting the program (and they also speak the same language).

 

Anyhow, I'm almost settled with the decision but I would like to know what you guys think about staying in the program when thinking about applying to other programs. Would adcoms think I am taking advantage of the current program? Do you think it would be better to withdraw and then apply?

 

I will definitely keep working as hard as I can but not sure how this will be perceived.

 

Thanks again for your comments!

[rsaylors]

People can and do switch programs.

 

I have a friend that had top marks in China, he went to a program not knowing that there's a BIG difference between State School and State School AT City. He realized this after his first year, applied during his second year and started fresh in his third year.

 

Similarly I know someone that just didn't 'fit' with the faculty at one place and decided to start over again: the experience of the first two years were a boon and lead to her being able to go to a better program.

 

Personally, even if I could transfer credits I wouldn't. Everyone teaches a doctoral seminar differently, and you are there to be mentored by your professors in the profession: That's something you can't get by transferring credits.

 

It can and will work out just fine. When it comes to the job market something like 1 in 20 schools actually want to see your transcripts before interviewing you: so no worries there either.

 

Classes matter so little it's ridiculous: it's all about publications and for many schools very good teaching evaluations are a necessary but not sufficient criteria (I'd say 1/2 are out-right stating high-quality/innovative teaching is preferred, and 1 in 10 are saying it is required).

 

I've also found that a few years of experience in industry helps a LOT when it comes to strat-entreprenurhsip jobs (perhaps 1 in 5 are looking for this as a 'preferred' criteria and 1 in 20 a 'required).

 

I don't know your V score or overall GRE percentile but you seem like a strong candidate.

[TraderJoe]

You will probably be better off by completing your PhD at your current school and then trying to do a three-year or four-year post-doc at a top research insitution. Your main goal is to build up your stream of research articles in the top journals. You will not achieve this by retaking all the PhD courses for the first two and half years. You will also not achieve this if you get a PhD at a TTT university and then land a teaching gig at a 3/3/2 or 4/4/2 university with lots of service requirements. However, a four-year post-doc at a top research insititution doing research for sixty hours per week would give you a solid stream of research articles under review at the top journals and would be the best way to launch your research career.

[GreggM]

You all have really provided me with great advice, mostly in line with what professors have told me.

 

rsaylors, my GRE V score is quite embarrassing, but in case I finally decide to apply for US programs I will take the GMAT, so far I've scored around 700 in the practice tests, so I figure that if I prepare for the test I should get above that.

 

TraderJoe, I've thought about the post-doc route yet need to discuss a bit more to see how it could work out.

 

Thanks again for all your help.

[wittmic]

You will probably be better off by completing your PhD at your current school and then trying to do a three-year or four-year post-doc at a top research insitution. Your main goal is to build up your stream of research articles in the top journals. You will not achieve this by retaking all the PhD courses for the first two and half years. You will also not achieve this if you get a PhD at a TTT university and then land a teaching gig at a 3/3/2 or 4/4/2 university with lots of service requirements. However, a four-year post-doc at a top research insititution doing research for sixty hours per week would give you a solid stream of research articles under review at the top journals and would be the best way to launch your research career.

 

This is fine for most disciplines, but, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, I believe post-docs in business are extremely rare, especially as of late.