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Thread: Renege PhD offers and re-apply in this December?

  1. #11
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    Re: Renege PhD offers and re-apply in this December?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chadhunter View Post
    Thank you. But why do you think it's bad in so many ways and a waste of time? I just feel depressed that my current opportunities hadn't come earlier before my application and want to give another try.
    Well, if you feel depressed with that kind of thing, I really feel sorry for you because you will probably face a lot of situations like that during the PhD and your life as a researcher. Doing a PhD is usually depressing enough, and you are already depressed before starting it. If you start going backward when a new opportunity comes up, I wonder what will happen when you get threats instead of opportunities.

    As I said, it seems a waste of time and I was really wondering if you are a troll. You made a big mistake applying to a school you are not happy with, then you did an even bigger mistake accepting the offer from a school you are not happy with (and if you just realized that now, that's another mistake too). That means you wasted your time, the school's time, the recommenders' time, and even took the place of someone else who would probably be much happier with the offer. Now you are thinking about an idea that you know that is wrong, and come here looking for validation of that idea. You want to take huge risks, waste another year, invest more money, for a marginally better outcome that seems very unlikely (if your profile is so stellar, one more paper will not make such a big difference unless it is a top journal, but given the limited time itīs not realistic to hope to get it published by a top journal before the end of the year). You have already been informed that this new paper can actually hurt you for a top 15 school instead of helping, and you seem aware that you may have problems with referees (even if they accept going through that trouble again for you, you can't be sure their letters of recommendation will be as good again). So, if you apply again your new profile will be just slightly better (best scenario) or actually worse (higher probability of this happening compared to the best scenario).

    Unless there is something else going on here that I'm not aware, you are taking huge risks to get an expected lower return. You don't need to have a PhD in Finance to know this might be a very bad idea. But maybe you are just too different from me, and is the kind of person who thinks in terms of "all or nothing", is a risk lover or is just addicted to mistakes.

    You want to do something that is not right, go ahead. People are free to do that. But don't expect us to say it is right.
    Last edited by BrazilianPhD; 04-23-2018 at 07:13 AM.

  2. #12
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    Re: Renege PhD offers and re-apply in this December?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadhunter View Post
    Thanks YaSvoboden. Do you mean you made it? If so, do you mind sharing (or PM me) how the department that gave you offer and your referees reacted to your decision? That would help me a lot. Thank!
    I think my original post was vague. I was really just saying that zshfryoh1 put all of my thoughts down perfectly.

    For a little more context, I am graduating from an accounting PhD this year. Our finance department is probably in that 20-30 range, maybe a little higher. Rankings are tricky. They had 5 great placements this year, including one into a top 5 school. Our accounting program is similar ranking, maybe a little higher, and we have placed into a top 5 school every few years and regularly place into good R1 schools. Realistically, there is not much distinction between programs ranked about 5-30. They can all place into any school and provide excellent training. I think the top few programs provide additional connections that add value, but the odds of you jumping to one of those next year seems really small.

    To sum it all up - your proposed jump from a top 30 school to a top 15 school isn't that big of a jump anyway. The odds of making that jump aren't really clear. It is pretty easy to identify a large cost associated with turning down the offer right now. I think it's pretty clear that the best move for you is to accept the current offer and do your best there.

  3. #13
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    Re: Renege PhD offers and re-apply in this December?

    I'm pretty sure the publication will help even if it's in a lower ranked journal, but it's very unlikely to get it published in time. Also, it may not help that much, and going from a top 30 school to a top 15 is not worth the risks and the additional year. I wouldn't do it.

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    Re: Renege PhD offers and re-apply in this December?

    Quote Originally Posted by YaSvoboden View Post
    I think my original post was vague. I was really just saying that zshfryoh1 put all of my thoughts down perfectly.

    For a little more context, I am graduating from an accounting PhD this year. Our finance department is probably in that 20-30 range, maybe a little higher. Rankings are tricky. They had 5 great placements this year, including one into a top 5 school. Our accounting program is similar ranking, maybe a little higher, and we have placed into a top 5 school every few years and regularly place into good R1 schools. Realistically, there is not much distinction between programs ranked about 5-30. They can all place into any school and provide excellent training. I think the top few programs provide additional connections that add value, but the odds of you jumping to one of those next year seems really small.

    To sum it all up - your proposed jump from a top 30 school to a top 15 school isn't that big of a jump anyway. The odds of making that jump aren't really clear. It is pretty easy to identify a large cost associated with turning down the offer right now. I think it's pretty clear that the best move for you is to accept the current offer and do your best there.
    Thanks very much for the information, YaSvoboden. But in the long term, I think the brand name of a top 15 school (e.g. Yale, Columbia) will be an asset to me though it may be less relevant to the short-term academic placement. Also it gives a better chance in the industry, which can be a backup.

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    Re: Renege PhD offers and re-apply in this December?

    Quote Originally Posted by YaSvoboden View Post
    I think my original post was vague. I was really just saying that zshfryoh1 put all of my thoughts down perfectly.

    For a little more context, I am graduating from an accounting PhD this year. Our finance department is probably in that 20-30 range, maybe a little higher. Rankings are tricky. They had 5 great placements this year, including one into a top 5 school. Our accounting program is similar ranking, maybe a little higher, and we have placed into a top 5 school every few years and regularly place into good R1 schools. Realistically, there is not much distinction between programs ranked about 5-30. They can all place into any school and provide excellent training. I think the top few programs provide additional connections that add value, but the odds of you jumping to one of those next year seems really small.

    To sum it all up - your proposed jump from a top 30 school to a top 15 school isn't that big of a jump anyway. The odds of making that jump aren't really clear. It is pretty easy to identify a large cost associated with turning down the offer right now. I think it's pretty clear that the best move for you is to accept the current offer and do your best there.
    Thanks YaSvoboden. I had replied to you but somehow my replies need to be approved by a moderator to be seen.

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    Re: Renege PhD offers and re-apply in this December?

    Quote Originally Posted by another user View Post
    I'm pretty sure the publication will help even if it's in a lower ranked journal, but it's very unlikely to get it published in time. Also, it may not help that much, and going from a top 30 school to a top 15 is not worth the risks and the additional year. I wouldn't do it.
    Thanks another user. I believe the letter from the senior professor is more helpful than the working paper. From my first-hand and second-hand information, it seems that reference letters are the most important factor in finance phd application. That's why I am considering reapplication because I can potentially have 3 letters from distinguished professors.

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    Re: Renege PhD offers and re-apply in this December?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadhunter View Post
    Thanks another user. I believe the letter from the senior professor is more helpful than the working paper. From my first-hand and second-hand information, it seems that reference letters are the most important factor in finance phd application. That's why I am considering reapplication because I can potentially have 3 letters from distinguished professors.
    I agree, the letter of recommendation would be more important than the working paper. Maybe you should ask his opinion about this and whether he would write you a letter and what he thinks about your chances in a top 15 school, conditional on you doing a great job as his coauthor.

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    Re: Renege PhD offers and re-apply in this December?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadhunter View Post
    Thanks StrategicMGMT. I agree that reneging offers will burn certain bridges and probably cause reputational damage. But will professors forget after 5 or 6 years? They are busy people and do not have time to keep a blacklist of whom to hate.
    Yes, maybe some will forget but at 2 admits per school x 30 schools (top 30), 60 people. How many people renege an offer in a given year? Assuming under 10% (that is probably pretty generous), that is not really a lot of names to remember nor does it necessitate some kind of blacklist or tracking.

    Prior to my time in academia I had a pretty successful firm and we hired about 50 people in a year. We extended offers to around 150 people in that same time period. Some accepted and reneged later; and while I can't remember their names off the top of my head, if I ever saw the name pop up again I would definitely remember. This happened with maybe ~5 people in that time.

    Again, don't under estimate how small academia is. Ethics are a huge part of this profession and negative signals will stick to you. If you want a preview go on EJMR and look at how people get shredded on there for perceived slights that are a fraction of what you are suggesting. Based on your responses it seems you have made up your mind and are just wanting to justify your decision. You are basically eliminating your chances at co-authors with anyone that was involved in your admissions at the school, AP opportunities at schools if they move around, & of course letter writers when you are up for tenure.

    If that is worth a 10 place jump on arbitrary rankings then go for it. But I agree with the others saying within the top 30 it really doesn't matter. At that point, no one questions your training. When you are on the market it is about research potential (publications) as the gate keeper, and then personal fit with the department when you interview. Going back to what I said before, do you think damaging your reputation will help with the personal fit aspect? If you already have a paper in process, you are going to have the publication part covered - you should be worried about fit and networking.

    Best of luck.

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    Re: Renege PhD offers and re-apply in this December?

    Quote Originally Posted by another user View Post
    I agree, the letter of recommendation would be more important than the working paper. Maybe you should ask his opinion about this and whether he would write you a letter and what he thinks about your chances in a top 15 school, conditional on you doing a great job as his coauthor.
    Thanks. I actually talked with one of my referees. He said that finance academia is a small profession and reneging an accepted offer is a serious signal. Though some current PhD students said it's overstated as long as I don't apply for the same school. Not sure which one is true.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful. Good post? Yes | No

    Re: Renege PhD offers and re-apply in this December?

    Trust the person that is more experienced. We have interviewed students at our school that left an impression that still matters. We had someone get an offer from our school as their only offer and decide not to do a PhD that year. I don't think this would seriously hurt your chances of getting into a PhD program next year, but it could affect your odds of getting a job at that school or other schools where those professors or their PhD students end up. If you are only doing this because you think you could get into a slightly better school, I do not think it is a good idea.

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