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oldprogrammer · 04-09-2008, 02:46 PM

In 2000, I graduated from a 4th-tier, Carnegie "Doctoral/Research Extensive" university with a BA in Economics. I did well, and graduated magna cum laude. I have spent the last 8 years as a software developer.

A couple of years ago I decided it was time to start thinking about getting my PhD, since the academic lifestyle has always been my dream. I was initially interested in pursuing a PhD in Economics, but I was put off by the extreme competitiveness of the academic job market. After further research, I felt I would equally enjoy a PhD in Business, concentrating in Finance (because of its similarity to Economics) or IS (representative of what I've been doing for the last 8 years), both of which have much better job prospects than Economics (I think).

In preparation, I started taking math courses. I'm almost done with Calculus II this semester. I plan on taking Calculus III, Linear Algebra, Intro to Proofs, and Real Analysis before applying to schools. I'm taking the CalcI-III sequence at a local community college, but I'll be taking the other math courses at the school I received my BA in Economics from.

And I'm not worried about the GMAT. I scored a 660 back in 2000 without any preparation. I was above 90% on the Verbal, but did poorly on the Quant. This time around, I'm going to spend a lot of time preparing for the Quant (and I've been developing my math skills with the calculus courses I've been taking). So I'm planning to get a 700 or perhaps a little better.

I really don't think I have a shot at top 20 programs, but I'm hoping for something in the 20-50 range. My doubts are regarding LOR's and research experience. When I was in school before, I impressed a sociology professor well enough that I could probably still get a great letter from him. But my other two letters would probably be from industry. My CIO and CFO would both be willing to write great letters for me, but I know those don't carry much weight at all. The only angle I can think of is that the nature of writing business software involves often working independently to solve complex problems that may or may not have a solution, which to me sounds like research (just not the same kind of research).

For Finance, I'm thinking of: USC, Boston College, UC-Boulder, Indiana, Purdue, Ohio State, Texas A&M, Vanderbilt, and UT-Dallas.

For IS, I'm thinking of: Michigan, UCLA, UC-Irvine, Georgia Tech, Arizon, and UWashington.

Does anyone have a reality check for me? Am a dreaming, thinking I can get into any of these programs without better LOR's and research experience? Is it weird to have two interests like this? I've heard that the job prospects for Finance PhD's are good even for Top-50 programs, but is the same true for IS?

desimba · 04-09-2008, 06:30 PM

I would think that it is somewhat unusual for someone to have an interest in both Finance and IS. The two disciplines are sufficiently different from each other in the sense that it is unlikely that you would be indifferent between these two streams once you have had a chance to take a close look at both of them. To that effect, I would advise you to look through the websites of the schools which you have mentioned, look at the course work requirements during the first two years of the program and the research conducted by the faculty members in those departments (maybe read some of the downloadable papers) and reach a well-informed decision around which one suits your interests better. While it is true that Finance graduates face better prospects after graduation, I would urge you not to make that your only (or even most important) factor in choosing between these disciplines. The PhD is a long arduous process and if your heart is not into something, I can assure you that you will hate every minute of it no matter how sweet the end of the road might be.

Now after you have gone through this process, if you find that your interests lie within IS, I think you are in good shape. With your profile, it is reasonable for you to expect to get into some of the places you mentioned. IS has a lower threshold in terms of their math requirements and so you would be fine with the level of math that you will be taking. IS programs also tend to attract people like yourself who have been out of school for a while and have been in the workplace so that also is helpful for you. Last but not the least, acceptance rates of IS programs tend to be higher than those of finance programs and that too should work in your favor.

If you do feel that Finance is what you are most passionate about, then I am afraid it may be hard getting admitted from some of the places where you have expressed an interest. You have to think about crafting a Statement of Purpose which can really tell a good story to the admissions committee that you understand what finance is and most importantly, you realize why you are applying for a PhD program in Finance. I would also recommend that you consider engaging in some form of a RA-ship with professors in finance that you know of. That would help you kill two birds with one stone:
1) You can get their enthusiastic recommendation rather than getting a recommendations from your CFO/ CIO;
2) You can make a justifiable claim that you understand what research in the field of finance means and why you want to pursue it for the long term.
In spite of those improvements, you may still have to consider applying to places outside of the top 50 to be sure that you can get into them.

SB

shootermcgavin7 · 04-09-2008, 07:48 PM

Business school entering classes tend to be a little older than Economics PhD entering classes.

So, I wouldn't worry about your age.

That said, I think you realize that the weakest part of your application is the fact that you've not been a serious student for some time, and (more importantly) your recommendation letters.

You absolutely need recommendation letters from academics in your field (or a related one), or you will not get in to a Top50 school.

My advice would be to enter some sort of Master's program, meet some of your professors, and then get them to write your recommendation letters that attest to your ability to do academic research.

If you can add this piece of the puzzle, I think your targeted range is pretty realistic.

halcyon_daze · 04-09-2008, 08:30 PM

Hey Oldprogrammer,

I'm also a 'non-traditional' (read older) student and will be starting my PhD in the fall (in strategy, not finance). Before starting the application process I did a lot of research into which programs were more likely to accept someone with a great deal of work experience rather vs. a preference for taking applicants fresh from undergrad. I found that some schools (e.g. NYU) virtually accept no 'seasoned' applicants while others (e.g. Wharton) are certainly much more open to it.

Have you considered doing a one-year masters in finance to a) boost your chances of acceptance as many candidates do have a completed masters; and b) establish the relationships necessary to get the academic LOR's that are preferred for PhD app's?

Since I'm a product of the Canadian system and knew I would be applying to Canadian schools I did a master's degree first. Most Canadian schools require a completed master's degree before entrance into a PhD program, so I didn't have a lot of choice! During my masters I worked on a couple of research projects and presented at conferences/published in proceedings. This record established and legitimized my serious interest in research.

Finance programs are incredibly competitive to gain admissions into and most applicants will have a 700+ GMAT or 800 quant score on the GRE, so you need to find something to set you apart. There are many finance programs out there that prefer - or require - the GRE for finance so you may need to write both standarized tests. If you come in with more recent grad school experience combined with fresh recommendations from academics, your chances for admissions will likely increase significantly, IMHO.

Cheers!

oldprogrammer · 04-09-2008, 08:50 PM

Thanks, guys. It sounds like I need to enroll in a Masters program first. That would be my only way to get a decent LOR (and perhaps a little research experience). It would also allow to determine if I preferred Finance over IS.

To be honest, although Finance research seems interesting to me, I'm utterly clueless about it except where it relates to Economics. For IS, the research is much more comparable to my own professional experience. My only doubt, still, about IS is the job market. I've googled it considerably and found nothing from the last 5 years to address the demand for IS PhDs.

ginmanga · 04-09-2008, 09:25 PM

There has been some discussion about the IS stuff in the following thread:

http://www.urch.com/forums/phd-busin...chools-20.html (Has anybody heard back from B-schools?)

oldprogrammer · 04-09-2008, 09:39 PM

Thanks, ginmanga. Not a very encouraging thread for IS. I didn't realize that many IS departments were downsizing.

Ancalagon The Black · 04-10-2008, 05:31 AM

IS rates higher than other disciplines? Not really. This year Stern took 2 people out of 187. Tepper took 3 people out of 106. TAMU took no one after receiving 80 applications.

I am sure you will do well. Just focus on the apps.

desimba · 04-10-2008, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ancalagon The Black

IS rates higher than other disciplines? Not really. This year Stern took 2 people out of 187. Tepper took 3 people out of 106. TAMU took no one after receiving 80 applications.

Yes- I cannot comment about whether IS rates are higher than those of other disciplines but they sure are are higher than Finance. Finance is usually the most competitive department to get into. You can take a look at the following links to see that for yourself:
1) Kellogg:
Finance: 8/196= 4.08% acceptance; Accounting, Information & Management: 3/66 = 4.55% acceptance (Doctoral Program, Kellogg School of Management)
2) Tippie @ Univ. of Iowa:
Management Science: 7/29= 24.1% & Finance: 4/75= 5.33%!
(http://www.biz.uiowa.edu/phd/Fall07AdmResults.html)
3) From the CMU web page, while it does not talk about the specific application rates, the answer is informative:

How many applications do we typically receive?
This varies by the area in which you are applying, and by the state of the world economy. Areas like Economics and Finance receive 2 to 3 times the number of applications that areas like Accounting or Information Systems receive.
(Application FAQs : Tepper School of Business)

If you could offer any verifiable information showing that IS rates are not higher than other disciplines, that would be interesting to see.

Ancalagon The Black · 04-10-2008, 03:58 PM

Sure. Whilst CMU Tepper does say the following, you have to remember that Finance usually takes in more students than IS. For instance, take a look at the following link of Stern:

Information, Operations & Management Sciences Department | Academic Programs

"We enroll an average of three students each year out of more than 100 highly qualified applicants. Students enrolling typically have GMATS over 700 or GREs over 1400."

Ergo, Avg(3/100) = 3%

Moreover, I have the denied letter of admissions of a friend who applied to Stanford GSB Operations and Information Management that 2 people were offered admissions out of 157.

This is just a sample. I am sure that similar rates exist. Also, the I am not sure but the Kellogg's AIOM program is not similar to the regular IS program. Rather, its just a glorified name given to the Accounting PhD.

04-09-2008, 02:46 PM	#1 (permalink)
oldprogrammer Within my grasp! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Dallas, Texas, USA Posts: 190	Evaluate an older student returning to school In 2000, I graduated from a 4th-tier, Carnegie "Doctoral/Research Extensive" university with a BA in Economics. I did well, and graduated magna cum laude. I have spent the last 8 years as a software developer. A couple of years ago I decided it was time to start thinking about getting my PhD, since the academic lifestyle has always been my dream. I was initially interested in pursuing a PhD in Economics, but I was put off by the extreme competitiveness of the academic job market. After further research, I felt I would equally enjoy a PhD in Business, concentrating in Finance (because of its similarity to Economics) or IS (representative of what I've been doing for the last 8 years), both of which have much better job prospects than Economics (I think). In preparation, I started taking math courses. I'm almost done with Calculus II this semester. I plan on taking Calculus III, Linear Algebra, Intro to Proofs, and Real Analysis before applying to schools. I'm taking the CalcI-III sequence at a local community college, but I'll be taking the other math courses at the school I received my BA in Economics from. And I'm not worried about the GMAT. I scored a 660 back in 2000 without any preparation. I was above 90% on the Verbal, but did poorly on the Quant. This time around, I'm going to spend a lot of time preparing for the Quant (and I've been developing my math skills with the calculus courses I've been taking). So I'm planning to get a 700 or perhaps a little better. I really don't think I have a shot at top 20 programs, but I'm hoping for something in the 20-50 range. My doubts are regarding LOR's and research experience. When I was in school before, I impressed a sociology professor well enough that I could probably still get a great letter from him. But my other two letters would probably be from industry. My CIO and CFO would both be willing to write great letters for me, but I know those don't carry much weight at all. The only angle I can think of is that the nature of writing business software involves often working independently to solve complex problems that may or may not have a solution, which to me sounds like research (just not the same kind of research). For Finance, I'm thinking of: USC, Boston College, UC-Boulder, Indiana, Purdue, Ohio State, Texas A&M, Vanderbilt, and UT-Dallas. For IS, I'm thinking of: Michigan, UCLA, UC-Irvine, Georgia Tech, Arizon, and UWashington. Does anyone have a reality check for me? Am a dreaming, thinking I can get into any of these programs without better LOR's and research experience? Is it weird to have two interests like this? I've heard that the job prospects for Finance PhD's are good even for Top-50 programs, but is the same true for IS? Last edited by oldprogrammer : 04-09-2008 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Privacy.

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04-09-2008, 06:30 PM	#2 (permalink)
desimba Within my grasp! Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 248	I would think that it is somewhat unusual for someone to have an interest in both Finance and IS. The two disciplines are sufficiently different from each other in the sense that it is unlikely that you would be indifferent between these two streams once you have had a chance to take a close look at both of them. To that effect, I would advise you to look through the websites of the schools which you have mentioned, look at the course work requirements during the first two years of the program and the research conducted by the faculty members in those departments (maybe read some of the downloadable papers) and reach a well-informed decision around which one suits your interests better. While it is true that Finance graduates face better prospects after graduation, I would urge you not to make that your only (or even most important) factor in choosing between these disciplines. The PhD is a long arduous process and if your heart is not into something, I can assure you that you will hate every minute of it no matter how sweet the end of the road might be. Now after you have gone through this process, if you find that your interests lie within IS, I think you are in good shape. With your profile, it is reasonable for you to expect to get into some of the places you mentioned. IS has a lower threshold in terms of their math requirements and so you would be fine with the level of math that you will be taking. IS programs also tend to attract people like yourself who have been out of school for a while and have been in the workplace so that also is helpful for you. Last but not the least, acceptance rates of IS programs tend to be higher than those of finance programs and that too should work in your favor. If you do feel that Finance is what you are most passionate about, then I am afraid it may be hard getting admitted from some of the places where you have expressed an interest. You have to think about crafting a Statement of Purpose which can really tell a good story to the admissions committee that you understand what finance is and most importantly, you realize why you are applying for a PhD program in Finance. I would also recommend that you consider engaging in some form of a RA-ship with professors in finance that you know of. That would help you kill two birds with one stone: 1) You can get their enthusiastic recommendation rather than getting a recommendations from your CFO/ CIO; 2) You can make a justifiable claim that you understand what research in the field of finance means and why you want to pursue it for the long term. In spite of those improvements, you may still have to consider applying to places outside of the top 50 to be sure that you can get into them. SB

04-09-2008, 07:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
shootermcgavin7 Within my grasp! Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 495	Business school entering classes tend to be a little older than Economics PhD entering classes. So, I wouldn't worry about your age. That said, I think you realize that the weakest part of your application is the fact that you've not been a serious student for some time, and (more importantly) your recommendation letters. You absolutely need recommendation letters from academics in your field (or a related one), or you will not get in to a Top50 school. My advice would be to enter some sort of Master's program, meet some of your professors, and then get them to write your recommendation letters that attest to your ability to do academic research. If you can add this piece of the puzzle, I think your targeted range is pretty realistic.

04-09-2008, 08:30 PM	#4 (permalink)
halcyon_daze Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 18	Hey Oldprogrammer, I'm also a 'non-traditional' (read older) student and will be starting my PhD in the fall (in strategy, not finance). Before starting the application process I did a lot of research into which programs were more likely to accept someone with a great deal of work experience rather vs. a preference for taking applicants fresh from undergrad. I found that some schools (e.g. NYU) virtually accept no 'seasoned' applicants while others (e.g. Wharton) are certainly much more open to it. Have you considered doing a one-year masters in finance to a) boost your chances of acceptance as many candidates do have a completed masters; and b) establish the relationships necessary to get the academic LOR's that are preferred for PhD app's? Since I'm a product of the Canadian system and knew I would be applying to Canadian schools I did a master's degree first. Most Canadian schools require a completed master's degree before entrance into a PhD program, so I didn't have a lot of choice! During my masters I worked on a couple of research projects and presented at conferences/published in proceedings. This record established and legitimized my serious interest in research. Finance programs are incredibly competitive to gain admissions into and most applicants will have a 700+ GMAT or 800 quant score on the GRE, so you need to find something to set you apart. There are many finance programs out there that prefer - or require - the GRE for finance so you may need to write both standarized tests. If you come in with more recent grad school experience combined with fresh recommendations from academics, your chances for admissions will likely increase significantly, IMHO. Cheers!

04-09-2008, 08:50 PM	#5 (permalink)
oldprogrammer Within my grasp! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Dallas, Texas, USA Posts: 190	Thanks, guys. It sounds like I need to enroll in a Masters program first. That would be my only way to get a decent LOR (and perhaps a little research experience). It would also allow to determine if I preferred Finance over IS. To be honest, although Finance research seems interesting to me, I'm utterly clueless about it except where it relates to Economics. For IS, the research is much more comparable to my own professional experience. My only doubt, still, about IS is the job market. I've googled it considerably and found nothing from the last 5 years to address the demand for IS PhDs.

04-09-2008, 09:25 PM	#6 (permalink)
ginmanga Eager! Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 53	There has been some discussion about the IS stuff in the following thread: http://www.urch.com/forums/phd-busin...chools-20.html (Has anybody heard back from B-schools?)

04-09-2008, 09:39 PM	#7 (permalink)
oldprogrammer Within my grasp! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Dallas, Texas, USA Posts: 190	Thanks, ginmanga. Not a very encouraging thread for IS. I didn't realize that many IS departments were downsizing.

04-10-2008, 05:31 AM	#8 (permalink)
Ancalagon The Black TestMagic Guru-in-Training Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Kolkata, India Posts: 900	IS rates higher than other disciplines? Not really. This year Stern took 2 people out of 187. Tepper took 3 people out of 106. TAMU took no one after receiving 80 applications. I am sure you will do well. Just focus on the apps.

04-10-2008, 03:58 PM	#10 (permalink)
Ancalagon The Black TestMagic Guru-in-Training Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Kolkata, India Posts: 900	Sure. Whilst CMU Tepper does say the following, you have to remember that Finance usually takes in more students than IS. For instance, take a look at the following link of Stern: Information, Operations & Management Sciences Department \| Academic Programs "We enroll an average of three students each year out of more than 100 highly qualified applicants. Students enrolling typically have GMATS over 700 or GREs over 1400." Ergo, Avg(3/100) = 3% Moreover, I have the denied letter of admissions of a friend who applied to Stanford GSB Operations and Information Management that 2 people were offered admissions out of 157. This is just a sample. I am sure that similar rates exist. Also, the I am not sure but the Kellogg's AIOM program is not similar to the regular IS program. Rather, its just a glorified name given to the Accounting PhD.

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