Is it easy to transfer after the first year...

[jkllkj]

for business school? I heard it's fairly common in science and engineering.

[desimba]

From what to what?

[mamoqilo]

for example, from one school to another in finance area

[desimba]

Well at University of Michigan which is where I am headed, you cannot transfer into from any other school. Even if you are in another PhD program and have completed the first year there, you have to re-apply if you want to get admitted to the school and start from the first year onwards.

[macroeconomicus]

It depends on where you want to transfer. If you're trying to "transfer" (see desimba's comment) to a place that no better than your current place, maybe it could work. Transfer to a better place? I don't know. Maybe you could try it after completing a whole year. I suggest having a backup plan for the case if you fail to do transfer.

[jkllkj]

okay, i probably used the wrong word here.

what i want to ask is, it a good idea to attend a lesser phd program and then apply for better ones during the first year? will having some courses at the graduate level under my belt boost my chance of getting admitted into better schools?

[oldprogrammer]

From what I've heard, isn't it bad form to accept a PhD offer (with the tuition waiver and stipend) with the intent to transfer? Maybe you should try getting into a MS Finance (or Financial Engineering or Mathematical Finance) program? Since MS programs are typically less competitive than PhD programs you should be able to get into a better program.

Of course, the caveat is that it's much more likely that you would have to foot the bill. But, with the nice salaries for Finance PhDs I wouldn't worry too much about that.

[macroeconomicus]

I think it's a "good" idea in the sense that there is little or no penalty for trying. Just don't go to a PhD program from which you intend to drop out regardless of whether you will be able transfer out from simply because you can't see yourself completing a PhD degree there. However, I am generally skeptical about such possibility. Spending one semester in a graduate program will hardly improve your chances for moving up, if at all. In fact, fall grades might not even be available on time for application deadlines. I have heard of such stories before. Ideally, you should spend the whole year in your program, and then re-apply during the fall semester of the second year. That is, if you get outstanding grades and letters of recommendation. Just make sure you have a backup plan (e.g. you can see yourself actually going on to finish the degree working with faculty at current program if you do stay). There is a question though whether professors will be actually willing to give you a good LoR and whether you can actually be the top student of your class (otherwise, why would better program want you?). Given the egos of some professors, specially some of the well known faculty in your program, it's almost certain some people will be pissed off. My personal take is that if I was a professor in a graduate program I would be pissed off if I was approached with such a request from a student who obviously joined the program to transfer up, thus wasting a funding spot that could be taken by someone who is taking the PhD program at my institution more seriously. PhD programs exist to grant PhD degrees, not Masters degrees right? They get no benefits from admitting students who eventually leave without finishing the PhD degree. There is LSE and other European and Canadian Masters programs that are specially meant for giving a better prep for PhD application.

[desimba]

Originally Posted by macroeconomicus

I think it's a "good" idea in the sense that there is little or no penalty for trying. Just don't go to a PhD program from which you intend to drop out regardless of whether you will be able transfer out from simply because you can't see yourself completing a PhD degree there. However, I am generally skeptical about such possibility. Spending one semester in a graduate program will hardly improve your chances for moving up, if at all. In fact, fall grades might not even be available on time for application deadlines. I have heard of such stories before. Ideally, you should spend the whole year in your program, and then re-apply during the fall semester of the second year. That is, if you get outstanding grades and letters of recommendation. Just make sure you have a backup plan (e.g. you can see yourself actually going on to finish the degree working with faculty at current program if you do stay). There is a question though whether professors will be actually willing to give you a good LoR and whether you can actually be the top student of your class (otherwise, why would better program want you?). Given the egos of some professors, specially some of the well known faculty in your program, it's almost certain some people will be pissed off. My personal take is that if I was a professor in a graduate program I would be pissed off if I was approached with such a request from a student who obviously joined the program to transfer up, thus wasting a funding spot that could be taken by someone who is taking the PhD program at my institution more seriously. PhD programs exist to grant PhD degrees, not Masters degrees right? They get no benefits from admitting students who eventually leave without finishing the PhD degree. There is LSE and other European and Canadian Masters programs that are specially meant for giving a better prep for PhD application.

Outstanding response there. Very balanced and thorough

[moomber123]

I agree with the opinion that joining a PhD program with the intention to "transfer up" should not be recommended. Not only you run the risk of "pissing off" faculty members (if you are to carry out such an intention in a public manner, which, I would argue, isn't wise to begin with), the chance for success, even with concealed intention, is probably not going to be high. I think most of my opinions have been presented by macroeconomicus, but I would like to add that academia is a much smaller and much more closed community than most expect it to be. Never run the risk of pissing off a prominent scholar in a particular field. You might think by transferring away, you'd run away from the problem, but don't be surprised that a simple phone call from the pissed off faculty will kill any chance to transfer to begin with. Or even if the faculty were decent enough to just let you transfer away, your future publication, and subsequent placement, are all open for sabotage. I am not suggesting that academia is like mafia, but the reality is that it is probably more mafia-like than most people who have this idealistic, respectful image of academia would expect. My best advice is to conduct yourself as scholarly as possible, so others in the field would have to treat you as such. Opportunistic behavior is generally not well respected.

On the more constructive note, if you ask me to give advice on how to improve your odds to get into top programs given some deficiency in records, I think going for LSE and other European master's programs is a great advice. But I would like to add that having publication is probably the best way to improve your odds. Of course, it is hard to publish at top journals even for those already in top programs, so if you can demonstrate that you have the potential by publishing at a B journal, then your chance will be greatly improved. Now I can't think of any terminal master's programs in US that might help you publish at B/B+ journals. MBA programs won't help at all. Going for a master's in economics at a teaching oriented school probably come closer, but the focus is so fundamentally different, you probably will not be able to publish anyways. Perhaps an MA in sociology or political science in teaching oriented school can give you opportunity to do some applied research that can be positioned as business research. Do not expect to go for a prestigious schools for those degrees just to transfer into business though. Those programs might be equally hard to get into. But, in fact, many great business scholars initially were sociologist (Jay Barney, for example). So that might be one way to improve your odds. But keep in mind that if you don't succeed, you might find yourself with an MA degree that you don't quite know how to leverage for your career.

Another point I want to make is that even if you can conceal your intention to "transfer up," and successfully pull it off, you might actually hurt yourself more in the process than it's worth. Transferring is a big deal. Loss of credit, different departmental policies and conventions, repositioning of research directions, are all very costly and introduce great uncertainty. Certainly, transferring is possible, and people have done it. But I think for those cases, a genuine realization that his/her research interests are better aligned with other departments is probably the reason why it was successful, not the intention to "transfer up."