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hillies717 · 05-16-2008, 12:48 AM

Hey everyone,

I'm new to the forum, going into my junior year of undergrad, and thinking about pursuing a PhD in Finance. I go to a top 10 undergrad business school (top 25 university overall), and I'm completing a dual degree B.B.A in Finance and B.S. in Math. I know I have to complete the standardized tests and all that but any advice beyond that would be greatly appreciated. Here's what I have so far.

GPA 3.44
Math GPA 3.70 (will be taking graduate level class in probability and possibly other graduate courses)
Business GPA (only 10 credits so far) 3.97

I went from a 3.04 after freshman year (really rough requirements) to a 3.44 after sophomore year. I am fairly confident I will graduate with at least a 3.6 and around 160 credits. This year I did some research in helping develop a class on futures studies and writing a report presented at a conference at school, not much but something. Assuming I can find other research opportunities at school and get some good letters of recommendation, how realistic would it be for me to get into any top 10? top 20?

Basically just looking for some help on what I definitely need to do in the next year to give myself an edge, and how I should go about it. Thanks for any help you can give me and it's been great reading other posts you guys have had.

desimba · 05-16-2008, 04:58 AM

Well you are certainly thinking ahead and that's good. You can and should check these forums occasionally over the next 1-2 years as you develop your application strategy and submit your applications. Beyond that, you certainly can do a couple of things to increase your chances of getting into a good program:

#1- Math- I am not sure what all courses are included in your Math courses, but I would say that they at least include Calculus I-III & Linear Algebra. That is really the bare bones minimum for you to submit a serious application. Beyond that real analysis is a very useful course. You should explore options at your school in that regard. Beyond that other math courses which honors students take such as abstract algebra, differential equations, to name a few can be helpful.

#2-Letters of recommendation (LORs): There is a big difference between good LORs and super duper LORs. For instance, if your recommender were to say- "This is the best student I have had in the last 10 years that I have been teaching the course and these are the 5 reasons why I believe that is so." it is a lot more powerful than a lukewarm letter saying "XYZ was a good student in my class and secured an A in the course." You can work hard on getting those LORs. Share your future plans with potential recommenders and see who of them might mentor you in the process. Try and be a TA/ RA for some of them. Build a relationship with them. If they are teaching a course, put additional effort in the assignments for their classes. Go to their posted office hours. It really helps!

#3-Ace the GRE- in particular the Quant part. Without 780 or more, it is hard to believe that one can be a competitive candidate at a top 10 school irrespective of one's other credentials.

Hope this is useful. Keep hard at it. The process while not perfect and somewhat random, is still fairly robust and efficient.

hillies717 · 05-19-2008, 03:30 PM

Thanks a lot! I'll definitely be on the board a lot in the coming year, and I really appreciate all the information you guys provide.

hillies717 · 06-24-2008, 06:03 PM

Just another few questions I could use some help on. I'm planning on getting the standardized tests out of the way by the end of this academic year (probably taking the GRE/GMAT in Spring 09). Should I take the GRE or GMAT if I'm in interested in a Finance PhD? As far as standardized tests go in the past, I have been much stronger in math than verbal if that makes a difference. Also I didn't know if some schools required one over the other.

Also how much does work experience play a role in admission to a PhD program? I know for MBA's it's obviously vital to have work experience but I would really rather take no time off after undergraduate before going into a PhD program. Is it unheard of to get into a top 25 program straight from undergrad or is it something I could pull off somehow. Thanks for all the help once again.

This is what I will have done as far as math classes go. Also, by completing a full finance major, I will have plenty of econ and finance. I'm planning on taking a class in econometrics in addition to the required econ/fin classes.

Requirements:
Calc I-III (placed out of I and II, got a B in Calc III)
Linear Algebra: B+
Intro to Math Reasoning (Intro to Abstract Math): A-
Computer Programming/Problem Solving: A
Ordinary Differential Equations: A
Real Analysis: will be taking this fall
Abstract Algebra: will be taking this spring
Electives:
Intro to Probability: A
Intro to Operations Research: A
3 more electives: probably will be Math Stats, Numerical Analysis (another computer based course) and Financial Mathematics.
I will also be taking graduate probability and possibly a graduate analysis class, possibly in place of one or more of the electives although I definitely want to take the financial mathematics class.

desimba · 06-24-2008, 07:08 PM

Which test is prefered does indeed depend on the school. For instance, to the best of my understanding, you can get by with having given just the GRE and not the GMAT though the reverse may not be true. Re: the importance of verbal vs. quant, I would say that quant is infinitely more important than verbal. I mean it does not hurt to have a 700+ on your verbal (I am talking GRE here), but if it is not matched up with a 780 or higher on the quant, then it doesn't matter. I remember having seen the profile of someone on the PhD Econ forum who got into Stanford GSB's Economic Analysis & Policy and Harvard's Business Economics programs, arguably the most competitive in all of B-school, with a 380 or something on the verbal. Needless to say everything else on the profile was great. However it would have been all but impossible for someone to get into a school of that calibre with less than a 90 percentile or so on the quant section.

Work experience is absolutely unimportant for getting into a PhD. Frankly there are some schools who look at work ex as a distraction. What many candidates at top schools have however are graduate degrees in related disciplines, e.g. if they are in a OB program, they may have had a MS in Sociology or Psychology, if they are in an Econ program, they may have a MS in Econ/ Math. Nevertheless there are a large number of students who come straight out of undergrad as well. In fact, my only other colleague in the Business Economics program at a top 10 school is coming straight out of her undergrad.

hillies717 · 06-24-2008, 09:57 PM

I figured taking the GRE might be a better choice, especially if I end up considering any Econ programs as well. Just want to get this test out of the way ASAP so I don't have to worry about it. Thanks again for all the insight, much appreciated.

Hocking · 07-01-2008, 03:53 AM

You are going to find that many Economics Programs will require you to take the GRE, and many Finance Programs will require you to take the GMAT. If you have a good idea of what schools that you may be interested in applying to, just check out there websites to see what they require. The reason many of these schools want you to take a specific test is because they want to compare your scores to other people's scores on the same test. They will also want to include your scores in their averages that they report for each class if you are admitted to their program. This is important for rankings, and when you start mixing GRE scores with GMAT scores, things get really messy. If you are applying to both types of programs, you will probably need to take both tests. The tests are very similar as far as your concerned, so your study time will not be doubled just because you are taking two tests. You will just have to pay for them.

As far as finance is concerned, you will also find that many Finance PhD programs hold out for applicants who already have master degrees. They like to see people with MBA's, but they also like to see people with graduate degrees in anything pertaining to business (Finance, Economics, Accounting, ect....). Finance programs are very picky, and they each select about 2-3 candidates per year out of anywhere from 50-300 that apply. They can be picky, so many of these programs eliminate undergraduates right off the top. Not all, but many. Again, look around at various schools websites to see what they say. Don't be afraid to pick up a phone and call the chair of the entire PhD program and ask him directly. You will not make him mad at all, and he may remember you when you apply to his program in the future.

Good luck.

desimba · 07-01-2008, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hocking

You are going to find that many Economics Programs will require you to take the GRE, and many Finance Programs will require you to take the GMAT.

I would take a slightly different tack here. While I did not apply to any Finance department myself (I applied to Business Economics & Strategy), as best as I can remember from my research, you could get by without taking the GMAT and taking just the GRE. There may be a occasional school where the Finance program will not accept the GRE but then you have to weigh the time and money costs of taking the GMAT for just that one school versus the gains from applying to that school. Not including the time that you would spend on taking the GMAT, the registration costs for the test are also not insignificant at $250! Furthermore the cost of each additional score reporting for the GMAT is much higher than those for the GRE. Last year when I applied, I believe the cost to send your test scores to any school beyond the first four that you can select during the test were ~ $28 per school for the GMAT as compared to $15 per school for the GRE. Net net the GMAT is a much more expensive proposition.

Hocking · 07-01-2008, 12:57 PM

I considered applying to at least >15 Finance PhD Programs for this year. Out of the >15 programs I was considering, I think only one would have accepted GRE scores. The others required that you take the GMAT, and they would not accept GRE scores.

I had taken the GRE two years ago when I was interested in applying to Economics PhD programs. So I had GRE scores, but the Finance Programs would not accept them. They needed GMAT scores to remain consistent.

The main reason for this is because the GMAT test is designed for business programs and these schools wanted to report GMAT scores for the people they admit in their programs. This impacts rankings and other areas of their programs. They do not want to report GRE scores at all because the score reporting is completely different for the GRE. There is no true conversion rule, so GRE scores would muddy their statistics.

If you are serious about applying to several Finance PhD programs, you are absolutely going to have to take the GMAT.

VGC · 07-01-2008, 06:50 PM

I applied to finance last year, and I took the GRE. There was no problem whatsoever with any of the schools (and I applied to many). Even more, there was only one school which said that they strongly recommended that you take the GMAT, and I was accepted there too. On the other hand, there were many schools which recommended that you take the GRE.

Based on my experience, I would recommend taking the GRE.

05-16-2008, 12:48 AM	#1 (permalink)
hillies717 Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 8	Finance PhD Preparation Hey everyone, I'm new to the forum, going into my junior year of undergrad, and thinking about pursuing a PhD in Finance. I go to a top 10 undergrad business school (top 25 university overall), and I'm completing a dual degree B.B.A in Finance and B.S. in Math. I know I have to complete the standardized tests and all that but any advice beyond that would be greatly appreciated. Here's what I have so far. GPA 3.44 Math GPA 3.70 (will be taking graduate level class in probability and possibly other graduate courses) Business GPA (only 10 credits so far) 3.97 I went from a 3.04 after freshman year (really rough requirements) to a 3.44 after sophomore year. I am fairly confident I will graduate with at least a 3.6 and around 160 credits. This year I did some research in helping develop a class on futures studies and writing a report presented at a conference at school, not much but something. Assuming I can find other research opportunities at school and get some good letters of recommendation, how realistic would it be for me to get into any top 10? top 20? Basically just looking for some help on what I definitely need to do in the next year to give myself an edge, and how I should go about it. Thanks for any help you can give me and it's been great reading other posts you guys have had.

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05-16-2008, 04:58 AM	#2 (permalink)
desimba Within my grasp! Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 206	Well you are certainly thinking ahead and that's good. You can and should check these forums occasionally over the next 1-2 years as you develop your application strategy and submit your applications. Beyond that, you certainly can do a couple of things to increase your chances of getting into a good program: #1- Math- I am not sure what all courses are included in your Math courses, but I would say that they at least include Calculus I-III & Linear Algebra. That is really the bare bones minimum for you to submit a serious application. Beyond that real analysis is a very useful course. You should explore options at your school in that regard. Beyond that other math courses which honors students take such as abstract algebra, differential equations, to name a few can be helpful. #2-Letters of recommendation (LORs): There is a big difference between good LORs and super duper LORs. For instance, if your recommender were to say- "This is the best student I have had in the last 10 years that I have been teaching the course and these are the 5 reasons why I believe that is so." it is a lot more powerful than a lukewarm letter saying "XYZ was a good student in my class and secured an A in the course." You can work hard on getting those LORs. Share your future plans with potential recommenders and see who of them might mentor you in the process. Try and be a TA/ RA for some of them. Build a relationship with them. If they are teaching a course, put additional effort in the assignments for their classes. Go to their posted office hours. It really helps! #3-Ace the GRE- in particular the Quant part. Without 780 or more, it is hard to believe that one can be a competitive candidate at a top 10 school irrespective of one's other credentials. Hope this is useful. Keep hard at it. The process while not perfect and somewhat random, is still fairly robust and efficient.

05-19-2008, 03:30 PM	#3 (permalink)
hillies717 Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 8	Thanks a lot! I'll definitely be on the board a lot in the coming year, and I really appreciate all the information you guys provide.

06-24-2008, 06:03 PM	#4 (permalink)
hillies717 Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 8	Just another few questions I could use some help on. I'm planning on getting the standardized tests out of the way by the end of this academic year (probably taking the GRE/GMAT in Spring 09). Should I take the GRE or GMAT if I'm in interested in a Finance PhD? As far as standardized tests go in the past, I have been much stronger in math than verbal if that makes a difference. Also I didn't know if some schools required one over the other. Also how much does work experience play a role in admission to a PhD program? I know for MBA's it's obviously vital to have work experience but I would really rather take no time off after undergraduate before going into a PhD program. Is it unheard of to get into a top 25 program straight from undergrad or is it something I could pull off somehow. Thanks for all the help once again. This is what I will have done as far as math classes go. Also, by completing a full finance major, I will have plenty of econ and finance. I'm planning on taking a class in econometrics in addition to the required econ/fin classes. Requirements: Calc I-III (placed out of I and II, got a B in Calc III) Linear Algebra: B+ Intro to Math Reasoning (Intro to Abstract Math): A- Computer Programming/Problem Solving: A Ordinary Differential Equations: A Real Analysis: will be taking this fall Abstract Algebra: will be taking this spring Electives: Intro to Probability: A Intro to Operations Research: A 3 more electives: probably will be Math Stats, Numerical Analysis (another computer based course) and Financial Mathematics. I will also be taking graduate probability and possibly a graduate analysis class, possibly in place of one or more of the electives although I definitely want to take the financial mathematics class.

06-24-2008, 07:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
desimba Within my grasp! Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 206	Which test is prefered does indeed depend on the school. For instance, to the best of my understanding, you can get by with having given just the GRE and not the GMAT though the reverse may not be true. Re: the importance of verbal vs. quant, I would say that quant is infinitely more important than verbal. I mean it does not hurt to have a 700+ on your verbal (I am talking GRE here), but if it is not matched up with a 780 or higher on the quant, then it doesn't matter. I remember having seen the profile of someone on the PhD Econ forum who got into Stanford GSB's Economic Analysis & Policy and Harvard's Business Economics programs, arguably the most competitive in all of B-school, with a 380 or something on the verbal. Needless to say everything else on the profile was great. However it would have been all but impossible for someone to get into a school of that calibre with less than a 90 percentile or so on the quant section. Work experience is absolutely unimportant for getting into a PhD. Frankly there are some schools who look at work ex as a distraction. What many candidates at top schools have however are graduate degrees in related disciplines, e.g. if they are in a OB program, they may have had a MS in Sociology or Psychology, if they are in an Econ program, they may have a MS in Econ/ Math. Nevertheless there are a large number of students who come straight out of undergrad as well. In fact, my only other colleague in the Business Economics program at a top 10 school is coming straight out of her undergrad.

06-24-2008, 09:57 PM	#6 (permalink)
hillies717 Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 8	I figured taking the GRE might be a better choice, especially if I end up considering any Econ programs as well. Just want to get this test out of the way ASAP so I don't have to worry about it. Thanks again for all the insight, much appreciated.

07-01-2008, 03:53 AM	#7 (permalink)
Hocking Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23	You are going to find that many Economics Programs will require you to take the GRE, and many Finance Programs will require you to take the GMAT. If you have a good idea of what schools that you may be interested in applying to, just check out there websites to see what they require. The reason many of these schools want you to take a specific test is because they want to compare your scores to other people's scores on the same test. They will also want to include your scores in their averages that they report for each class if you are admitted to their program. This is important for rankings, and when you start mixing GRE scores with GMAT scores, things get really messy. If you are applying to both types of programs, you will probably need to take both tests. The tests are very similar as far as your concerned, so your study time will not be doubled just because you are taking two tests. You will just have to pay for them. As far as finance is concerned, you will also find that many Finance PhD programs hold out for applicants who already have master degrees. They like to see people with MBA's, but they also like to see people with graduate degrees in anything pertaining to business (Finance, Economics, Accounting, ect....). Finance programs are very picky, and they each select about 2-3 candidates per year out of anywhere from 50-300 that apply. They can be picky, so many of these programs eliminate undergraduates right off the top. Not all, but many. Again, look around at various schools websites to see what they say. Don't be afraid to pick up a phone and call the chair of the entire PhD program and ask him directly. You will not make him mad at all, and he may remember you when you apply to his program in the future. Good luck.

07-01-2008, 12:57 PM	#9 (permalink)
Hocking Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23	I considered applying to at least >15 Finance PhD Programs for this year. Out of the >15 programs I was considering, I think only one would have accepted GRE scores. The others required that you take the GMAT, and they would not accept GRE scores. I had taken the GRE two years ago when I was interested in applying to Economics PhD programs. So I had GRE scores, but the Finance Programs would not accept them. They needed GMAT scores to remain consistent. The main reason for this is because the GMAT test is designed for business programs and these schools wanted to report GMAT scores for the people they admit in their programs. This impacts rankings and other areas of their programs. They do not want to report GRE scores at all because the score reporting is completely different for the GRE. There is no true conversion rule, so GRE scores would muddy their statistics. If you are serious about applying to several Finance PhD programs, you are absolutely going to have to take the GMAT.

07-01-2008, 06:50 PM	#10 (permalink)
VGC Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 19	I applied to finance last year, and I took the GRE. There was no problem whatsoever with any of the schools (and I applied to many). Even more, there was only one school which said that they strongly recommended that you take the GMAT, and I was accepted there too. On the other hand, there were many schools which recommended that you take the GRE. Based on my experience, I would recommend taking the GRE.

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