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phdpotential · 08-27-2008, 02:46 AM

It wasn't always my goal to pursue a PhD in business (marketing), which I think puts me in the minority on this board. Quite to the contrary, I hadn't even considered the possibility of such a career until recently, and I now realize that my background is probably deficient in a number of areas for gaining serious consideration as an applicant. I also don't know the best approach to making my background more appealing, so I turn to you for advice.

My situation in brief
I have a political science degree and no research experience whatsoever. I also have a likely strike against me in that I dropped out of law school (6 years ago - it was 100% the right decision) after 1 year (of pretty poor performance). Professionally, I've bounced around a bit, trying to find the right career fit (started in sales, moved to marketing, presently at a mid-level managerial position for an ad agency).

My questions for you (with some extra setup)
I've reasoned that a Masters program could afford me the opportunity to build research credentials while also counterbalancing my poor law school performance, but I don't really know what would be a worth-while Masters program to pursue. My area of academic interest is in business (marketing in particular), and an MBA strikes me as too professionally focused a degree for my situation. In what tangentially related subject could I pursue a Masters to better position myself for admission to a PhD program? Or is this completely the wrong approach to shoring up my weaknesses? Your advice is greatly appreciated.

oldprogrammer · 08-27-2008, 04:41 PM

My opinion, based on advice I've received on this board, would probably be for you to pursue a MS degree, probably in Marketing. Since I'm not familiar with Marketing, it may be that those programs don't really exist or are not research-oriented (which is the situation in my area, MIS). In that case, I might recommend an MS in Economics, as I was advised, but you probably don't have the undergraduate preparation to be able to start an MS program in Economics.

There are also a few specific math courses you will need to take that you probably have not, given your background in political science. At a minimum for Business PhD admissions, you will need to take a course in multivariable calculus (often labeled Calculus III), Linear Algebra, and some form of statistics (preferably calculus-based). If you have not taken these math courses, then you should probably get started. Normally you have to have Calc I and Calc II before you can take Calc III or Linear Algebra. And, as a political science major, you may not have even taken Precalculus or Trig, one of which may be required to take Calc I.

phdpotential · 08-27-2008, 08:55 PM

Thanks for your reply oldprogrammer. Fortunately, as an undergraduate student I had a secondary interest in computer science, and as a result I did take up to Calculus II, so I'm not as far behind in that regard as I could be. Calc III and Linear Algebra are classes I can probably take locally pretty soon, so preparing for an MS in Economics may be possible.

An MS in Marketing seems like it's more application-oriented than research focused, so I don't know if it would serve its purpose well enough. I don't have much knowledge of these programs however, so I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Are there any other Masters degrees that are viewed favorably for PhD candidates in marketing? Is there any possibility to get into a funded Masters program (economics or otherwise)?

oldprogrammer · 08-27-2008, 09:23 PM

That's good news about the math. I hope it hasn't been too long since you were in Calc II.

Other than Economics, I might suggest an MS in Math, Applied Math, or Statistics. Business school AdComs get really excited when they see candidates who have done well in Real Analysis, so naturally a math major really shines out for them.

For an Economics MS, in addition to the math courses I have already mentioned, they will typically expect you to have taken Intermediate-level Micro/Macro and Econometrics. Those three courses will often require intro micro/macro and some kind of business/applied statistics.

Unfortunately, funding is very unlikely for a Masters program unless there is something really special about you.

phdpotential · 08-27-2008, 09:56 PM

Unfortunately, it has been a while since I took Calc II (about 8 years), so I would certainly need to brush up on those skills. I took intro to micro and macro economics and a business statistics course as part of my general education requirements, so those are squared away too.

Thanks for the additional Masters suggestions. I had been considering an MS in Statistics, so I was glad to see that represented on your list.

I suspected that the likelihood for a funded Masters would be extremely low, but figured I'd ask anyway. You only make the shots you take. I'd like to think I'm really special, but most of the momentum I carried toward possible Masters funding has probably diminished over time. I did graduate from high school in 3 years and college in 3 years, but those are pretty marginal accomplishments. I also doubt my winning smile and exceptional charm will be deemed ample enough to merit a tuition waiver.

An assistantship would be pretty important to me, since I have a (non-working) wife and 2 kids. Otherwise, I'll have to pursue the Masters part-time... very slowly. Perhaps I'll be able to complete the PhD by the time I'm 40...

oldprogrammer · 08-27-2008, 10:47 PM

Well, if it's any consolation I am in a very similar situation. I also graduated 8 years ago (with a BA in Economics). I've been a software developer ever since, and decided a couple of years ago that I wanted to get my PhD. When I was working on my BA, I had only taken the Business Calculus class, which is rather light. So when I tried to take the first calculus course I was quickly in over my head. So I stepped back to take Precalculus, and now I am taking Calc III this semester and plan to start a MS program (part-time) next Fall after I take Linear Algebra.

The other important thing you need to focus on during your MS is doing research. Research experience and LORs go hand-in-hand, and both are vital for getting into a top program.

Most people I know shake their heads at me, wondering why I'm taking calculus classes and not doing normal "30-something" kinds of things. And since I estimate that I'll finish my PhD when I'm 39, I don't see that ever happening. But that's okay. You only get one life so it should be spent achieving your dreams not bemoaning regrets.

YoungEconomist · 09-01-2008, 05:51 PM

I would think that an Masters in Economics or a Masters in Finance with solid grades could send a strong signal to Marketing PhD programs that you're a serious student and have the intellectual capabilities to pursue a PhD.

GMATslayer09 · 09-02-2008, 11:26 PM

Here is my opinion, hope it helps:

As far as the level of math, for marketing you will want to know multivariate statistical analysis (regression, ANOVA, MANOVA, ANCOVA) and understand structural equations modeling (LISREL, AMOS) but the program will teach you all of that along with research design.

I was worried about the math too, but once I contacted the schools I was interested in I discovered it’s not that bad if you don't have an extensive math background as long as you do well on the GMAT. Of course, having high level math can't hurt, but I would not necessarily delay your applications because of that. If they really think you are lacking in some area, they'll have you take some courses before you begin your formal doctorate. If they like you, lacking a few courses isn't going to keep you out. With this route, its covered under the program and tuition is generally taken care of.

I would contact the programs you are interested in and just explain your background and get their advice. You'd be surprised how helpful the faculty are. Also, contact the current PhD students and get their advice. They are probably your best unbiased source of info. I doubt they'll care about the law school. I wouldn't make it a point or worry about that bro. It is a good idea to have some formal response ready in case they ask, but if you have well-defined research goals and good test scores and letters they aren't going to weigh that very heavily. Most programs don't look much at your professional career either. Yours does fit so I would bring it up in the letters, but don't make it your focal point. They'll mainly care about your GMAT score, undergrad GPA, letters and statement of intent.

As far as a MS/MA, again I would check with the faculty at the schools you’re interested in and see what they recommend before you invest all that time and money. You may not even need it if you have really focused research goals. Some programs allow you to acquire your MS in route to the PhD.

If you go the MS route, have the research theme you want to study during your PhD in mind and get an MS in a subject that allows you to conduct research in that area. That way you'll have research experience that is directly applicable to your PhD. For example, if you want to study consumer behavior, you may want to get a MS in psychology and write your thesis on self-regulation theory. Or, say you're interested in studying brand management in your doctorate. I'd recommend pursuing a MS that allows you to do that exact type of research that way you'll have a strong statement of intent once you're done and a powerful thesis to back you up.

Personally, I don't think you can go wrong with an MBA and you can still find research opps if you do an MBA. The reason I say that is most business PhDs are actually in Business Admin and you then focus on an area, such as marketing. The MBA can fulfill some of the credit requirements you'll need if you go for a business PhD. Also, with an MBA you'll get the big picture of how marketing works together with all the other parts of an organization. I think it’s helpful to have that big picture. But again, that's me.

Hope that helps. You can do it!

ames56 · 09-03-2008, 06:39 PM

Hello, everyone. I'm so glad that I found this thread! I, too, and persuing a Phd in Business (Finance). I was planning on getting a Masters in Finance first, but would love to find a program that allows me to get my Masters during the doctoral program. Does anyone know of a program that offers this or know of any good resources to send me in the right direction?

Prawler · 09-04-2008, 01:21 AM

Hi Ames,
So you want to have your masters for free? Start a PhD and quit by the time you acquire your Master's? Schools are not too eager about that issue, trust me

08-27-2008, 02:46 AM	#1 (permalink)
phdpotential Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3	Preparing for PhD - this wasn't always my goal. Advice needed. It wasn't always my goal to pursue a PhD in business (marketing), which I think puts me in the minority on this board. Quite to the contrary, I hadn't even considered the possibility of such a career until recently, and I now realize that my background is probably deficient in a number of areas for gaining serious consideration as an applicant. I also don't know the best approach to making my background more appealing, so I turn to you for advice. My situation in brief I have a political science degree and no research experience whatsoever. I also have a likely strike against me in that I dropped out of law school (6 years ago - it was 100% the right decision) after 1 year (of pretty poor performance). Professionally, I've bounced around a bit, trying to find the right career fit (started in sales, moved to marketing, presently at a mid-level managerial position for an ad agency). My questions for you (with some extra setup) I've reasoned that a Masters program could afford me the opportunity to build research credentials while also counterbalancing my poor law school performance, but I don't really know what would be a worth-while Masters program to pursue. My area of academic interest is in business (marketing in particular), and an MBA strikes me as too professionally focused a degree for my situation. In what tangentially related subject could I pursue a Masters to better position myself for admission to a PhD program? Or is this completely the wrong approach to shoring up my weaknesses? Your advice is greatly appreciated.

09-02-2008, 11:26 PM	#8 (permalink)
GMATslayer09 Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 19	Here is my opinion, hope it helps: As far as the level of math, for marketing you will want to know multivariate statistical analysis (regression, ANOVA, MANOVA, ANCOVA) and understand structural equations modeling (LISREL, AMOS) but the program will teach you all of that along with research design. I was worried about the math too, but once I contacted the schools I was interested in I discovered it’s not that bad if you don't have an extensive math background as long as you do well on the GMAT. Of course, having high level math can't hurt, but I would not necessarily delay your applications because of that. If they really think you are lacking in some area, they'll have you take some courses before you begin your formal doctorate. If they like you, lacking a few courses isn't going to keep you out. With this route, its covered under the program and tuition is generally taken care of. I would contact the programs you are interested in and just explain your background and get their advice. You'd be surprised how helpful the faculty are. Also, contact the current PhD students and get their advice. They are probably your best unbiased source of info. I doubt they'll care about the law school. I wouldn't make it a point or worry about that bro. It is a good idea to have some formal response ready in case they ask, but if you have well-defined research goals and good test scores and letters they aren't going to weigh that very heavily. Most programs don't look much at your professional career either. Yours does fit so I would bring it up in the letters, but don't make it your focal point. They'll mainly care about your GMAT score, undergrad GPA, letters and statement of intent. As far as a MS/MA, again I would check with the faculty at the schools you’re interested in and see what they recommend before you invest all that time and money. You may not even need it if you have really focused research goals. Some programs allow you to acquire your MS in route to the PhD. If you go the MS route, have the research theme you want to study during your PhD in mind and get an MS in a subject that allows you to conduct research in that area. That way you'll have research experience that is directly applicable to your PhD. For example, if you want to study consumer behavior, you may want to get a MS in psychology and write your thesis on self-regulation theory. Or, say you're interested in studying brand management in your doctorate. I'd recommend pursuing a MS that allows you to do that exact type of research that way you'll have a strong statement of intent once you're done and a powerful thesis to back you up. Personally, I don't think you can go wrong with an MBA and you can still find research opps if you do an MBA. The reason I say that is most business PhDs are actually in Business Admin and you then focus on an area, such as marketing. The MBA can fulfill some of the credit requirements you'll need if you go for a business PhD. Also, with an MBA you'll get the big picture of how marketing works together with all the other parts of an organization. I think it’s helpful to have that big picture. But again, that's me. Hope that helps. You can do it! Last edited by GMATslayer09 : 09-07-2008 at 04:20 PM.

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08-27-2008, 04:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
oldprogrammer Within my grasp! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Dallas, Texas, USA Posts: 203	My opinion, based on advice I've received on this board, would probably be for you to pursue a MS degree, probably in Marketing. Since I'm not familiar with Marketing, it may be that those programs don't really exist or are not research-oriented (which is the situation in my area, MIS). In that case, I might recommend an MS in Economics, as I was advised, but you probably don't have the undergraduate preparation to be able to start an MS program in Economics. There are also a few specific math courses you will need to take that you probably have not, given your background in political science. At a minimum for Business PhD admissions, you will need to take a course in multivariable calculus (often labeled Calculus III), Linear Algebra, and some form of statistics (preferably calculus-based). If you have not taken these math courses, then you should probably get started. Normally you have to have Calc I and Calc II before you can take Calc III or Linear Algebra. And, as a political science major, you may not have even taken Precalculus or Trig, one of which may be required to take Calc I.

08-27-2008, 08:55 PM	#3 (permalink)
phdpotential Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3	Thanks for your reply oldprogrammer. Fortunately, as an undergraduate student I had a secondary interest in computer science, and as a result I did take up to Calculus II, so I'm not as far behind in that regard as I could be. Calc III and Linear Algebra are classes I can probably take locally pretty soon, so preparing for an MS in Economics may be possible. An MS in Marketing seems like it's more application-oriented than research focused, so I don't know if it would serve its purpose well enough. I don't have much knowledge of these programs however, so I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Are there any other Masters degrees that are viewed favorably for PhD candidates in marketing? Is there any possibility to get into a funded Masters program (economics or otherwise)?

08-27-2008, 09:23 PM	#4 (permalink)
oldprogrammer Within my grasp! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Dallas, Texas, USA Posts: 203	That's good news about the math. I hope it hasn't been too long since you were in Calc II. Other than Economics, I might suggest an MS in Math, Applied Math, or Statistics. Business school AdComs get really excited when they see candidates who have done well in Real Analysis, so naturally a math major really shines out for them. For an Economics MS, in addition to the math courses I have already mentioned, they will typically expect you to have taken Intermediate-level Micro/Macro and Econometrics. Those three courses will often require intro micro/macro and some kind of business/applied statistics. Unfortunately, funding is very unlikely for a Masters program unless there is something really special about you.

08-27-2008, 09:56 PM	#5 (permalink)
phdpotential Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 3	Unfortunately, it has been a while since I took Calc II (about 8 years), so I would certainly need to brush up on those skills. I took intro to micro and macro economics and a business statistics course as part of my general education requirements, so those are squared away too. Thanks for the additional Masters suggestions. I had been considering an MS in Statistics, so I was glad to see that represented on your list. I suspected that the likelihood for a funded Masters would be extremely low, but figured I'd ask anyway. You only make the shots you take. I'd like to think I'm really special, but most of the momentum I carried toward possible Masters funding has probably diminished over time. I did graduate from high school in 3 years and college in 3 years, but those are pretty marginal accomplishments. I also doubt my winning smile and exceptional charm will be deemed ample enough to merit a tuition waiver. An assistantship would be pretty important to me, since I have a (non-working) wife and 2 kids. Otherwise, I'll have to pursue the Masters part-time... very slowly. Perhaps I'll be able to complete the PhD by the time I'm 40...

08-27-2008, 10:47 PM	#6 (permalink)
oldprogrammer Within my grasp! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Dallas, Texas, USA Posts: 203	Well, if it's any consolation I am in a very similar situation. I also graduated 8 years ago (with a BA in Economics). I've been a software developer ever since, and decided a couple of years ago that I wanted to get my PhD. When I was working on my BA, I had only taken the Business Calculus class, which is rather light. So when I tried to take the first calculus course I was quickly in over my head. So I stepped back to take Precalculus, and now I am taking Calc III this semester and plan to start a MS program (part-time) next Fall after I take Linear Algebra. The other important thing you need to focus on during your MS is doing research. Research experience and LORs go hand-in-hand, and both are vital for getting into a top program. Most people I know shake their heads at me, wondering why I'm taking calculus classes and not doing normal "30-something" kinds of things. And since I estimate that I'll finish my PhD when I'm 39, I don't see that ever happening. But that's okay. You only get one life so it should be spent achieving your dreams not bemoaning regrets.

09-01-2008, 05:51 PM	#7 (permalink)
YoungEconomist TestMagic Guru Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 1,369	I would think that an Masters in Economics or a Masters in Finance with solid grades could send a strong signal to Marketing PhD programs that you're a serious student and have the intellectual capabilities to pursue a PhD.

09-03-2008, 06:39 PM	#9 (permalink)
ames56 Trying to make mom and pop proud Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2	Hello, everyone. I'm so glad that I found this thread! I, too, and persuing a Phd in Business (Finance). I was planning on getting a Masters in Finance first, but would love to find a program that allows me to get my Masters during the doctoral program. Does anyone know of a program that offers this or know of any good resources to send me in the right direction?

09-04-2008, 01:21 AM	#10 (permalink)
Prawler Within my grasp! Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 328	Hi Ames, So you want to have your masters for free? Start a PhD and quit by the time you acquire your Master's? Schools are not too eager about that issue, trust me

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