Uiuc-usc-uw-bc

**okyanus** · 03-24-2010, 09:50 PM

UIUC funded dominates all of your other options.

Yeah you are right that UIUC is higher than all of the other universities listed here in various rankings. However I am not completely convinced. For ex. I checked the placements at UIUC and they are not very good. At least I think USC and UW have had better placement lately. And they have a very high attrition rate at UIUC (confirmed by an insider student)...

**untitled** · 03-24-2010, 10:39 PM

I wanted to make a couple comments. First, I agree that a funded admit from UIUC dominates unfunded at UW, and I want to note that even being high on the UW funding waitlist doesn't mean that the chances of getting funded are super high. I don't know much, and don't want to speculate, but I want to advise caution about your expectations of funding from UW.

Second, attrition at UIUC was brought up, and I think that schools ranked similarly to these often have interesting issues related to attrition. UW has graduate school statistical summaries, here. As a student, I don't feel comfortable doing the math openly on the forum, but if you compare the average number of new students per year to the average number of students awarded PhDs per year, the attrition rate you will estimate is, I think, pretty high (sorry to paraphrase from a recent PM I sent).

Attrition by this sort of count is, I think, generally high for schools outside the top 25 for a couple reasons. One, most programs just outside the top 25 are just as rigorous and difficult as schools in the top 25, and students who don't get accepted at top programs often have trouble with the academic expectations. Two, students who don't get top 25 acceptances often have outside issues that both hinder their profile and their ability to excel academically. These may include having taken time off away from school, being married, or whatever. Thus, many students leave or perform poorly for "personal reasons." So if you interpret the attrition rate in this light, you might have a good idea of whether you think you are likely to be affected by the high attrition or not.

I claim that this rate is high at other schools of similar rank, but I don't have any direct evidence of this. But my not wholly uninformed feeling is that if you are academically suited for en economics PhD (and you probably are if you have some funded admits from schools in the top 50), the biggest source of attrition for you will be school fit: fit with the strengths of the program, with the culture of the other students, with the environment in the city, with access to your friends and family, etc. That you will have to work hard in the next few weeks to judge. Reported attrition numbers are like that recent study that reported that full-time faculty teach 100% of the undergraduate classes at the University of Nebraska - who knows how they are counted. Qual's at UW are not too hard, and are doable if you study and learn the material (duh); I don't get the feeling that the quals are meant to weed out students who put in the work.

As for the academics at UIUC, I think they are very strong. I also note that their placements don't seem to mesh with their rankings. This could be due to their being some sort of Midwest application fatigue or something like that, as there are a lot of schools in the Midwest to which to apply, and many students prefer schools on the coast, so they might not get as strong of a class of applicants as their ranking would suggest. Another way to look at it, an average student from the Midwest has many choices of safeties and good fits, while an average student from the West has fewer. Also, with so many choices, it is possibly very hard for UIUC to control their yield rates, which may have funny effects on their admissions. Looking at their past aggregate results, I see a lot of strong applicants who ended up somewhere else. On the other hand, all the UIUC students I met seemed great, and student research is very active their.

**ilikefreefood** · 03-25-2010, 03:55 PM

Thanks untitled, I think your analysis of attrition is very fair. It also corresponds closely to the impressions that I have gotten from others.

Last year, my thesis advisor suggested that I consider UIUC as a safety school because it's a solid program with funding. However, I did not apply because I knew that my then-girlfriend could not get a job in the area. I'm originally from a small town, but I still worry about my ability to be happy and productive in that location. Attrition for academic reasons is not a big concern of mine (I survived first-semester micro at a Top 20ish school while working, after all), but 5 years is a long time to spend in any one place.

I knew one person who went to UIUC from my school straight out of undergrad (an Illinois native), but I contacted him on Facebook and discovered that he has transferred to Minnesota. He said he has good things to say about the department though. I'm going to try to arrange a visit there if I can find the time.

**okyanus** · 03-26-2010, 06:03 AM

I e-mailed the department at UIUC and they said they are planning to have an entering class of 10-12 which is good.

I wanted to make a couple comments. First, I agree that a funded admit from UIUC dominates unfunded at UW

And what can you say about funded offers from both UIUC and UW?

**untitled** · 03-26-2010, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by okyanus

And what can you say about funded offers from both UIUC and UW?

I think the two schools are close enough that you should consider what is the best fit and which school will give you the best chance to succeed.

**walt526** · 03-26-2010, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by untitled

I think the two schools are close enough that you should consider what is the best fit and which school will give you the best chance to succeed.

FWIW, I agree with that assessment. Personally, UIUC would have been a better for me than UW. But if one's interests are more macro (among others), then UW might be the optimal choice.

**untitled** · 03-26-2010, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by walt526

FWIW, I agree with that assessment. Personally, UIUC would have been a better for me than UW. But if one's interests are more macro (among others), then UW might be the optimal choice.

That is the thing, I think UIUC has some very good macro people. Also, UW's macro ranking (any time we are highly ranked, in fact) is heavily skewed by the presence of Turnovsky, who isn't publishing quite as much as he once did, who along with Nelson and Brock give us quite an experienced macro trio (the three chair for a lot of graduate students). However, our young macro group is coming along very nicely, and, in any case, you should pay attention to all of their work and compare it to the macro people at UIUC, I don't think UW's macro dominance over UIUC is cut and dry at all. I don't know much about the UIUC faculty, but I've seen some presentations by UIUC graduate students (not JMPs) and they were all very good and as graduate students were positive about their experience at UIUC (it was a while ago and I didn't personally talk to them at all).

Likewise, I recently went to a talk by an upper level grad student here at UW doing empirical micro-labor work. I was really floored, and expect to see a top notch placement for her in the next year or two. As is being discussed at the placement thread, this doesn't mean I will become as strong as she is, but it does mean that I can learn to do some really impressive micro work, way above the level that one might expect at a school that is weak in micro, which shows that working with the right people (Portner, Thornton, and Kim, in this case, I think), one can have a very strong empirical micro experience at a macro and time series school like UW. The person I am thinking of is definitely special, but I would say she will do better than the UIUC graduate students I saw present on applied micro (although the group I saw was by not necessarily top UIUC students, while this person may be one of our best).

So, back to my earlier point, even if your interests are a slightly better fit at one top 35 school than at another, the best fit can involve other issues (I think the presenter I saw here recently is married to someone who works in computer science, and thus Seattle is an especially optimal city). I should mention that, on the other hand, if you don't feel like you can succeed at a school (especially because of lack of faculty), don't expect your love of a city or region to overcome that.

**okyanus** · 03-26-2010, 03:14 PM

if you don't feel like you can succeed at a school (especially because of lack of faculty), don't expect your love of a city or region to overcome that.

I totally agree that... that's why location is at the end of my list.... I think I am becoming more inclined to game theory or (if I make a change) to econometrics.... looking at the placements, atmosphere in the dept, financial aid package and the location, I think USC is gaining the upper hand for me... I still have an appointment with one of my best professors about this though... this might affect my decision too ( and yes unfortunately I am very open for outsite effects )