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currentstudent · 2009 July 4th, 10:21 PM

I am in a program where people usually take 5 years to get out. In the back of my mind I have always wondered -- could I get out a year early? Right now I am about to start my 3rd year and I have two decent half-completed papers which are complete enough to know that they have significant and interesting results (one is a previous term paper which I am in the process of revising). Probably both could be published in mediocre journals when they're done (by mediocre I mean maybe the "C" list here: http://www.ifw-kiel.de/research/Jour...20Jan%2009.pdf ). One will be co-authored.

Should I try to leave in year 4? I would "ask my advisor" but I think there's some pressure in my program to stay the 5 years, I don't want to seem too cocky yet (it might be a more appropriate question to ask in a few months when I see how everything is going a bit more clearly), and I don't even formally have an advisor yet though I know who two of them will be. I'm just trying to get an early impression.

Complications:
- The job market is bound to reek this year, and will probably still be bad the following year.
- I'm still uncertain as to whether I want to go into academia or somewhere else (I'd specify where but my main alternative would be too specific and I'd rather maintain anonymity). Presumably if I ended up choosing somewhere else, there would be no harm to trying to apply in my 4th year -- but I hear that people who go on the job market twice face huge hurdles, so I wouldn't want to go on it just for kicks. Could I apply to the non-academic option without "going on the job market" academically? Then if that didn't work out I could stay through the 5th year and go on the job market "one time only" as far as academic institutions were concerned?
- On the other hand, why would anyone want to leave early anyway? If I stayed for 5th year, I would have funding for that, and when else in your life do you get to spend a year just researching whatever you like without teaching obligations or etc.? I could in theory relax a bit, do some extra-curricular activities that I have put on the back burner....

Your thoughts? Many thanks.

Socio · 2009 July 5th, 10:57 AM

My thoughts? You should definitely "relax a bit, do some extra-curricular activities that you have put on the back burner". I know that your first placement is kinda important, so make sure you're either absolutely ready for the job market, or you have reached a point where there is just nothing else to do but go out there. I think the "taking it easy"' option will allow you to see whatever might be missing, avoid the current job market, and make sure you're ready. After all, what is this life if, full of care, there is no time to stand and stare!?!?

rogueeconomist · 2009 July 6th, 04:32 AM

It seems like you have no information on the most important variable, the quality of your job market paper.

Everything depends on that. It's kind of like this. Conditional on your JMP passing the standards of your dept/advisor:

If the JMP is fairly crappy and everyone (yourself included) believe that you can't make it any better or produce something better, nobody will really object to you leaving.

If the JMP is OK but shows potential, your advisor will likely put some pressure on you to stay and improve it. They will dangle inducements (oh, this could be great if you did XYZ) and threats (I can't support you leaving when you have such potential!).

If it's great... well... duh... the only thing stopping you from leaving would be if your advisor felt that no good institution was in the market for someone like you this year.

So really, it's all kind of irrelevant. See what you come up with first! Also, notice that you can probably only produce the first outcome (a crappy JMP that barely passes) with certainty. Most people try for the last outcome and get one of the first two...

mazzalupi · 2009 July 6th, 04:42 AM

If you are done, then graduate early and do a post doc.

ZomgRogged · 2009 July 6th, 02:34 PM

If you graduate early you have an extra year to generate papers and improve your chances of winning the John Bates Clark Medal.

appliedtheorist · 2009 July 7th, 12:33 AM

The "C journals" in the Kiel list are still good if you ask me...I mean...ILRR, JHR, IJIO, Management Science, Journal of Economic History etc.

AREStudentHopeful · 2009 July 7th, 12:52 AM

Yeah, that listing also depends on your field. I, for one, would *love* to get my JMP published in JEEM right when I get my ARE doctorate. There are only so many slots in AER, depending on the field, some of those C list journals could be golden for your first, real published paper.

currentstudent · 2009 July 8th, 01:16 AM

Thanks to all for the comments.

I'm sort of like one of those people you see post here occasionally who aren't all that interested in academia but thought that an Econ Ph.D. would be a good idea to make sure you reach a senior position elsewhere and don't get held back or reach a glass ceiling.

Through the first 2 years of the Ph.D., I've been surrounded by and partially assimilated into a culture where academic research and beyond that university rankings are god. I think I've still managed to hold onto my original goals pretty well, but if a really nice academic placement is available I might consider it. It would have to be pretty nice, though, and I'm not likely to get a pretty nice one, in my opinion.

Hence my dilemma. I would need to stick around to do better to get a good academic placement. I don't want to stick around if I wouldn't get a good academic placement, and I might not even want to stick around if I would. I think that my outside options might be pretty good with an only "okay" job market paper. I'm just not very motivated to try to see what's the best research I could possibly do when academic research isn't really what drives me. I mean, I could easily fill my time for a year with other interesting pursuits -- very easily. Reading, writing... but not what academia would like.

rogueeconomist · 2009 July 8th, 04:58 AM

I know exactly what you mean. I have a fairly mediocre placement but it is in a location that I personally desire and I actually enjoy research so it doesn't matter for me (even though I know that I am unlikely to have my research win me any awards or accolades from prominent people).

But I would say that if you don't have a strong personal desire to keep doing research because you like it (or because it will help you meet your life goals, whether that is respect or money or whatever) then you shouldn't look for an academic job!

It sounds like you have already been around the block in terms of getting papers to a 'publishable' state. But have you endured the publication and research marketing gauntlet for real yet? That kind of male bovine fecal matter really wears people down mentally and physically.

It is not worth putting up with unless academia is something that is really important to you, which it doesn't sound like it is.

I know - and I'm sure you know - people who were bright and walked away from academia forever and are doing well in their lives. It's a good thing to find out one way or another what you want to do. Hopefully you will receive more information that will help you decide.

2009 July 4th, 10:21 PM	#1 (permalink)
currentstudent I JUST got here. Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6	Advantages/disadvantages of graduating early from a PhD program? I am in a program where people usually take 5 years to get out. In the back of my mind I have always wondered -- could I get out a year early? Right now I am about to start my 3rd year and I have two decent half-completed papers which are complete enough to know that they have significant and interesting results (one is a previous term paper which I am in the process of revising). Probably both could be published in mediocre journals when they're done (by mediocre I mean maybe the "C" list here: http://www.ifw-kiel.de/research/Jour...20Jan%2009.pdf ). One will be co-authored. Should I try to leave in year 4? I would "ask my advisor" but I think there's some pressure in my program to stay the 5 years, I don't want to seem too cocky yet (it might be a more appropriate question to ask in a few months when I see how everything is going a bit more clearly), and I don't even formally have an advisor yet though I know who two of them will be. I'm just trying to get an early impression. Complications: - The job market is bound to reek this year, and will probably still be bad the following year. - I'm still uncertain as to whether I want to go into academia or somewhere else (I'd specify where but my main alternative would be too specific and I'd rather maintain anonymity). Presumably if I ended up choosing somewhere else, there would be no harm to trying to apply in my 4th year -- but I hear that people who go on the job market twice face huge hurdles, so I wouldn't want to go on it just for kicks. Could I apply to the non-academic option without "going on the job market" academically? Then if that didn't work out I could stay through the 5th year and go on the job market "one time only" as far as academic institutions were concerned? - On the other hand, why would anyone want to leave early anyway? If I stayed for 5th year, I would have funding for that, and when else in your life do you get to spend a year just researching whatever you like without teaching obligations or etc.? I could in theory relax a bit, do some extra-curricular activities that I have put on the back burner.... Your thoughts? Many thanks.

2009 July 7th, 12:52 AM	#7 (permalink)
AREStudentHopeful Attending CSU Masters Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: CO, USA Posts: 682	Yeah, that listing also depends on your field. I, for one, would love to get my JMP published in JEEM right when I get my ARE doctorate. There are only so many slots in AER, depending on the field, some of those C list journals could be golden for your first, real published paper. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ Colorado State ARE

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2009 July 5th, 10:57 AM	#2 (permalink)
Socio Eager! Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 32	My thoughts? You should definitely "relax a bit, do some extra-curricular activities that you have put on the back burner". I know that your first placement is kinda important, so make sure you're either absolutely ready for the job market, or you have reached a point where there is just nothing else to do but go out there. I think the "taking it easy"' option will allow you to see whatever might be missing, avoid the current job market, and make sure you're ready. After all, what is this life if, full of care, there is no time to stand and stare!?!?

2009 July 6th, 04:32 AM	#3 (permalink)
rogueeconomist Within my grasp! Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 123	It seems like you have no information on the most important variable, the quality of your job market paper. Everything depends on that. It's kind of like this. Conditional on your JMP passing the standards of your dept/advisor: If the JMP is fairly crappy and everyone (yourself included) believe that you can't make it any better or produce something better, nobody will really object to you leaving. If the JMP is OK but shows potential, your advisor will likely put some pressure on you to stay and improve it. They will dangle inducements (oh, this could be great if you did XYZ) and threats (I can't support you leaving when you have such potential!). If it's great... well... duh... the only thing stopping you from leaving would be if your advisor felt that no good institution was in the market for someone like you this year. So really, it's all kind of irrelevant. See what you come up with first! Also, notice that you can probably only produce the first outcome (a crappy JMP that barely passes) with certainty. Most people try for the last outcome and get one of the first two...

2009 July 6th, 04:42 AM	#4 (permalink)
mazzalupi Eager! Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 35	If you are done, then graduate early and do a post doc.

2009 July 6th, 02:34 PM	#5 (permalink)
ZomgRogged Within my grasp! Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 235	If you graduate early you have an extra year to generate papers and improve your chances of winning the John Bates Clark Medal.

2009 July 7th, 12:33 AM	#6 (permalink)
appliedtheorist Within my grasp! Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 151	The "C journals" in the Kiel list are still good if you ask me...I mean...ILRR, JHR, IJIO, Management Science, Journal of Economic History etc.

2009 July 8th, 01:16 AM	#8 (permalink)
currentstudent I JUST got here. Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6	Thanks to all for the comments. I'm sort of like one of those people you see post here occasionally who aren't all that interested in academia but thought that an Econ Ph.D. would be a good idea to make sure you reach a senior position elsewhere and don't get held back or reach a glass ceiling. Through the first 2 years of the Ph.D., I've been surrounded by and partially assimilated into a culture where academic research and beyond that university rankings are god. I think I've still managed to hold onto my original goals pretty well, but if a really nice academic placement is available I might consider it. It would have to be pretty nice, though, and I'm not likely to get a pretty nice one, in my opinion. Hence my dilemma. I would need to stick around to do better to get a good academic placement. I don't want to stick around if I wouldn't get a good academic placement, and I might not even want to stick around if I would. I think that my outside options might be pretty good with an only "okay" job market paper. I'm just not very motivated to try to see what's the best research I could possibly do when academic research isn't really what drives me. I mean, I could easily fill my time for a year with other interesting pursuits -- very easily. Reading, writing... but not what academia would like.

2009 July 8th, 04:58 AM	#9 (permalink)
rogueeconomist Within my grasp! Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 123	I know exactly what you mean. I have a fairly mediocre placement but it is in a location that I personally desire and I actually enjoy research so it doesn't matter for me (even though I know that I am unlikely to have my research win me any awards or accolades from prominent people). But I would say that if you don't have a strong personal desire to keep doing research because you like it (or because it will help you meet your life goals, whether that is respect or money or whatever) then you shouldn't look for an academic job! It sounds like you have already been around the block in terms of getting papers to a 'publishable' state. But have you endured the publication and research marketing gauntlet for real yet? That kind of male bovine fecal matter really wears people down mentally and physically. It is not worth putting up with unless academia is something that is really important to you, which it doesn't sound like it is. I know - and I'm sure you know - people who were bright and walked away from academia forever and are doing well in their lives. It's a good thing to find out one way or another what you want to do. Hopefully you will receive more information that will help you decide.

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