PHD in Developement Economics- IS it for me to?

[kacharya]

Hey all you Guru's out there...

 

This is my first time posting anything on any form, so please be nice. :)

 

I am currently a Junior in College, completing my undergrad in Business and Economics with a minor in French. I took some time off from high school, so I'll graduate at the age of 25. (very important.) My goal is to work for the I.M.F, or the U.N as a research specialist.

 

The reason I'm thinking about a doctorate is:

-I.M.F, along with many other large organizations, do not hire employee's after the age of 30, and at the same time, employee's need to have a PHD.

-The job market is currently unstable.

-I am a good student, and enjoy studying and research.

-And supposedly it saves time to go straight for a phd instead of doing a masters in between.

 

The reason I'm not so sure about it is:

-Cost

-Everything I've read up on dissertations tells me its the hardest thing I'll ever do.

-I'm not sure if I want to continue studying for so long.

 

 

Some other random questions:

 

-Does a PHD student have to stay in the college while doing his dissertation, or can he go and get a job in another city at the same time?

 

-How long does a dissertation take?

 

-I'm thinking about devel. Econ. because I want to be able to help my country with its economic issues, do I have the right idea of devel. econ?

 

Thank you very much!!

:tup: you guys rock.

Edited July 28, 2010 by kacharya

[pappy]

If your end goal is to work for the UN or the IMF, you might be better off getting a masters. Someone else might be more informed about this, but I'm under the impression that the WB and others are hiring fewer PhD economists and more people with MA's (at least from what I gather about the Young Professionals program).

 

To solve the cost issue, you could try getting into the PhD program with some kind of funding (TAship, RAship, fellowship), and maybe leaving with a masters if you don't feel the need to do the dissertation. You could try doing a PhD in a big city, but I don't think working a part-time job and doing your grad coursework is going to work out as well as just doing the coursework only; it's not like other social science PhD's.

 

Oh, and, I don't know of any PhD's in Development Economics, but you could always specialized in development under the regular Economics PhD. There is a PhD in Sustainable Development program at Columbia, though.

[AREStudentHopeful]

I won't comment on the specs for working at the WB, IMF or UN (as I know very little about them), but I can answer some of the questions about a PhD.

 

-You could, technically, get a job while working on your dissertation, but it definitely isn't suggested. A dissertation is a lot of work and you want to be able to focus on it.

-Your whole PhD program typically takes 5 years with 2 years of class and 3 years of doing your dissertation. This is somewhat flexible, but trying to squeeze in your dissertation into 4 years because of a mental time-constraint isn't recommended. In addition, you want time to keep in contact with your advisors, especially going into the 4th/5th years when you near the job market; thus moving to another city while doing your dissertation isn't really advised.

[dreck]

Hey all you Guru's out there...

 

This is my first time posting anything on any form, so please be nice. :)

 

I am currently a Junior in College, completing my undergrad in Business and Economics with a minor in French. I took some time off from high school, so I'll graduate at the age of 25. (very important.) My goal is to work for the I.M.F, or the U.N as a research specialist.

 

The reason I'm thinking about a doctorate is:

-I.M.F, along with many other large organizations, do not hire employee's after the age of 30, and at the same time, employee's need to have a PHD.

-The job market is currently unstable.

-I am a good student, and enjoy studying and research.

-And supposedly it saves time to go straight for a phd instead of doing a masters in between.

 

The reason I'm not so sure about it is:

-Cost

-Everything I've read up on dissertations tells me its the hardest thing I'll ever do.

-I'm not sure if I want to continue studying for so long.

 

 

Some other random questions:

 

-Does a PHD student have to stay in the college while doing his dissertation, or can he go and get a job in another city at the same time?

 

-How long does a dissertation take?

 

-I'm thinking about devel. Econ. because I want to be able to help my country with its economic issues, do I have the right idea of devel. econ?

 

Thank you very much!!

:tup: you guys rock.

 

IMHO You need to have a passion for the discipline of economics (within your field, yes, but also for the core of economics), and a driving desire to do research. If and only if you have these things, then we can talk about the other issues around whether you should do a PhD. Cost should not be too much of a concern; most people get a tuition waiver and stipend by their second or third year at the latest. Many get that kind of an offer for all 5 years.

If you do development you may spend some time abroad doing research./gathering data, but most of your advisors will strongly recommend against your working. Some funding offers will require that you not work.

Other than that, I can't offer much more will help you. I strongly recommend you talk to a few of your professors about this option, especially in the area of development. They know the job market far better than us :)

[icebear]

First, you may find this thread that I posted awhile ago helpful. If you have any questions feel free to post them there (to keep things organized for searches in the future) and if I can I'll answer them.

 

Non-academic career paths - the utility of a MA in economics

 

I am currently a Junior in College, completing my undergrad in Business and Economics with a minor in French. I took some time off from high school, so I'll graduate at the age of 25. (very important.) My goal is to work for the I.M.F, or the U.N as a research specialist.

 

The reason I'm thinking about a doctorate is:

-I.M.F, along with many other large organizations, do not hire employee's after the age of 30, and at the same time, employee's need to have a PHD.

-The job market is currently unstable.

-I am a good student, and enjoy studying and research.

-And supposedly it saves time to go straight for a phd instead of doing a masters in between.

 

It is not true that you must be younger than 30 to begin working in the IMF or World Bank. There are programs at both institutions that are designed to get fresh masters and PhD graduates into a long term career path which have age limits (32 at WB and 34 at IMF, if I recall correctly), but these by no means are mandatory paths in. The alternative is to build up your credibility in academia or consultancy and then enter mid-career; I expect this is how the majority of staff entered - this is indeed the more common path at the UN or WTO, which I have personal experience with. A masters is sufficient to work as an economist in the World Bank; a PhD may help, but ultimately your work and research quality, and your professional networks, will be the most important.

 

One example of a successful economist at WB with only a MSc:

Louis Kuijs - Senior Economist in the World Bank’s China office

 

If your end goal is to work for the UN or the IMF, you might be better off getting a masters. Someone else might be more informed about this, but I'm under the impression that the WB and others are hiring fewer PhD economists and more people with MA's (at least from what I gather about the Young Professionals program).

 

I agree. Read above regarding career opportunities with a MS/MA Econ at the WB. From what I've heard, the IMF is harder to get into without a PhD than the WB, but the example above proves that it is possible (Louis Kuijs was at IMF for ~7 years with only a MSc).

Edited July 29, 2010 by icebear

[icebear]

There are programs at both institutions that are designed to get fresh masters and PhD graduates into a long term career path which have age limits (32 at WB and 30 at IMF, if I recall correctly), but these by no means are mandatory paths in.

 

Rereading this, I just wanted to add - the WB and IMF programs are intensely competitive, and you should really be expecting to work in consultancy first and try to get into WB or IMF eventually. Of course apply for their programs, but the acceptance rate of each is pretty scary (I was told this year it was 16000 apps for the WB YPP,

 

• WB Young Professionals Program -
• WB Junior Professional Associates -
• IMF Economist Program -

[azure86]

a note for the YP program at the WB: i was told by somebody who works at the WB that you will have a better chance if you already hold a PhD from a very prestigious school. It's one of the toughest jobs to get. The goal of the YP program (again, I was told, besides the info from the website) is mostly to train these people to be in the management role while still holding a very sharp knowledge of the field (rather than academic economists whose primary job is to write papers/research for the WB).

[kacharya]

Thanks Pap,

 

Your response made me go deeper into the issue. And yes, you maybe right. For the YP program, IMF does hire Masters, but only with those of 3 Years + of experience in their field... I'm not sure what I would prefer, working in the field or completing the PhD. I'll look into that.

Excellent start.. thank you.

[kacharya]

I won't comment on the specs for working at the WB, IMF or UN (as I know very little about them), but I can answer some of the questions about a PhD.

 

-You could, technically, get a job while working on your dissertation, but it definitely isn't suggested. A dissertation is a lot of work and you want to be able to focus on it.

-Your whole PhD program typically takes 5 years with 2 years of class and 3 years of doing your dissertation. This is somewhat flexible, but trying to squeeze in your dissertation into 4 years because of a mental time-constraint isn't recommended. In addition, you want time to keep in contact with your advisors, especially going into the 4th/5th years when you near the job market; thus moving to another city while doing your dissertation isn't really advised.

 

So I hear. but I was unaware that most PhD. students get a stipend when they apply for a good program, so a job may not be necessary. :)

Thanks...

A side topic, would you have any suggestions as to applying for a top graduate program coming from a small college in the South East? My college has less than a 1000 students, is a liberal arts school, and does not have a masters of PhD. program. By suggestions I mean things I should probably have on my resume??

Thanks.

[kacharya]

IMHO You need to have a passion for the discipline of economics (within your field, yes, but also for the core of economics), and a driving desire to do research. If and only if you have these things, then we can talk about the other issues around whether you should do a PhD. Cost should not be too much of a concern; most people get a tuition waiver and stipend by their second or third year at the latest. Many get that kind of an offer for all 5 years.

If you do development you may spend some time abroad doing research./gathering data, but most of your advisors will strongly recommend against your working. Some funding offers will require that you not work.

Other than that, I can't offer much more will help you. I strongly recommend you talk to a few of your professors about this option, especially in the area of development. They know the job market far better than us :)

 

Thank you for your humble opinion.

 

I do have a passion for economics, but I am quite impatient. I'm not absolutely sure if economics is my field, yet, it is the field that I have been in for the longest (changed major 4 times, and have been in econ now for 3 sem. ).

[kacharya]

First, you may find this thread that I posted awhile ago helpful. If you have any questions feel free to post them there (to keep things organized for searches in the future) and if I can I'll answer them.

 

Non-academic career paths - the utility of a MA in economics

 

 

 

It is not true that you must be younger than 30 to begin working in the IMF or World Bank. There are programs at both institutions that are designed to get fresh masters and PhD graduates into a long term career path which have age limits (32 at WB and 34 at IMF, if I recall correctly), but these by no means are mandatory paths in. The alternative is to build up your credibility in academia or consultancy and then enter mid-career; I expect this is how the majority of staff entered - this is indeed the more common path at the UN or WTO, which I have personal experience with. A masters is sufficient to work as an economist in the World Bank; a PhD may help, but ultimately your work and research quality, and your professional networks, will be the most important.

 

One example of a successful economist at WB with only a MSc:

Louis Kuijs - Senior Economist in the World Bank’s China office

 

 

 

I agree. Read above regarding career opportunities with a MS/MA Econ at the WB. From what I've heard, the IMF is harder to get into without a PhD than the WB, but the example above proves that it is possible (Louis Kuijs was at IMF for ~7 years with only a MSc).

 

Very Good information Ice - Thanks!

 

You're right.. I forgot to mention that I was primarily considering the Young Professionals Program as a point of entry as thats what I would after graduate school.

 

Louis' profile is very interesting indeed! Exactly what I am interested in, but for India. I will follow up on his blog. Mid-career enterence into one of those organizations is an option I'll keep in mind. Any idea's on how to get in touch with professionals currently working at the IMF/World Bank, and expand my network? As an international student, my network is very limited!

 

Thanks!

[kacharya]

a note for the YP program at the WB: i was told by somebody who works at the WB that you will have a better chance if you already hold a PhD from a very prestigious school. It's one of the toughest jobs to get. The goal of the YP program (again, I was told, besides the info from the website) is mostly to train these people to be in the management role while still holding a very sharp knowledge of the field (rather than academic economists whose primary job is to write papers/research for the WB).

 

 

Exactly to the point Azure.. Thanks... that is very important information...

[icebear]

Any idea's on how to get in touch with professionals currently working at the IMF/World Bank, and expand my network? As an international student, my network is very limited!

 

Thanks!

 

1. Unsolicited contact - I wouldn't personally do this, but I've heard it works (I'm inclined to believe in rare cases).

 

2. Look up some of the staff who you think are doing interesting work. Find out where they did their masters or PhD. Same for their coauthors. Take it out one more step to prior coauthors. Try to go to a masters program at the same institution, or one they are currently affiliated with. Develop relationships with the people they have in their network. Now you have someone in your network who can write a credible LOR for your YPP application. For what its worth, CEMFI (see link below) has placed masters grads in the WB for the last several years, despite them only being masters students and CEMFI not being some uber-famous Ivy Tower like Harvard, etc. There are other schools like this which have a good placement record based on historical networking, not the luster of the name.

 

3. Do the same thing, but do so with consultancies or other firms the person has previously worked with. Look into what consulting firms do contracts that are outsourced from your agency of choice (this information is generally in the public record). Try to to a internship with them, which could progress to a full job. Prove you're good enough for WB (or IMF, EC, USAID, etc) projects from the outside (which typically receive as much or more scrutiny than internal projects), then try to come in. You'll have also developed a network with those inside during those projects. This is how I got into a UN agency, although it wasn't planned. Which leads to...

 

4. Find a job/internship in consulting which you find enjoyable and/or interesting. Enjoy it, and keep your ears open for opportunities. Don't let the publicity of these big international organizations seduce you. While they are great to work at, and in some cases have tangible impacts along the lines of their mandates, there are many relatively unknown firms doing equally relevant and interesting research, which is as global in scope and has equivalent policy impacts (to be clear, I'm deriding the policy impacts of some international organization projects, not inflating those of small firms).

Edited August 2, 2010 by icebear

[Guest _nanashi]

The question is do you like math. Now a days the competitive PhD programs (and the ones that give you the most hope for the IMF/World Bank) expect what in most U.S. programs would be equivalent to a mathematics minor (Close to a major).

 

Cal I-III, Matrix Algebra, Probability, is considered absolutely bare bones preperation for american students, take a look at the profiles of students here. Most of them have Probability, Real Analysis, and quite a few have upper level courses like Math Stats, Measure Theory, Stochastic Processes, Numerical Analysis, Abstract Algebra, Linear Programming.

[icebear]

The question is do you like math. Now a days the competitive PhD programs (and the ones that give you the most hope for the IMF/World Bank) expect what in most U.S. programs would be equivalent to a mathematics minor (Close to a major).

 

I mentioned this in my other thread, but want to reiterate here: if you're enamored with the thought of working at the WB more than with economics in general you should pursue a degree in one of the many fields that the World Bank needs - the Official Development Assistance (ODA) sector covers a broad range of topics besides just economics, and the WB (among other orgs) has all types of specialists on environment, social policy, agriculture, infrastructure, etc etc etc.

 

If you particularly enjoy the economic policy, economics, and related math then definitely go for the econ degree. IMF definitely econ.

[AREStudentHopeful]

I know your pain :) . I actually came from a satellite state school in the SE. Check with your advisors/faculty in the econ department about past PhD placement; there are a few LAC's in the southeast that actually have very good PhD placement records. If that is the case, then your LoR's may be worth more than you think. If not, then you have a little more of an uphill battle. You need a top GRE score (800Q is always a good target) and have all the math covered in terms of Calc I-III, LA, Diff Eq, Real Analysis and Probability. Finally, try to get a RA gig with either one of your professors or at another local college if possible. Basically, coming from a small school, you want to do everything you can to fill any holes the adcom could see in your application; someone coming from an Ivy or such may be able to overcome some of these issues...coming from a small school, they may not be as likely to give you the benefit of the doubt.

[kacharya]

The question is do you like math. Now a days the competitive PhD programs (and the ones that give you the most hope for the IMF/World Bank) expect what in most U.S. programs would be equivalent to a mathematics minor (Close to a major).

 

Cal I-III, Matrix Algebra, Probability, is considered absolutely bare bones preperation for american students, take a look at the profiles of students here. Most of them have Probability, Real Analysis, and quite a few have upper level courses like Math Stats, Measure Theory, Stochastic Processes, Numerical Analysis, Abstract Algebra, Linear Programming.

 

 

Nanashi:

I like math, and I quite enjoyed the econometrics course I did last semester too.

Thanks for the Math classes, I think with all those courses I might as well become a double major with Mathematics.

[kacharya]

I mentioned this in my other thread, but want to reiterate here: if you're enamored with the thought of working at the WB more than with economics in general you should pursue a degree in one of the many fields that the World Bank needs...".

 

@ IceBear,

 

I think you really nailed the question that I should be asking myself... It actually got me to spend a couple of days thinking about it.

I guess its a bit of both. I've changed about 5 majors now, from Aerospace to business and econ finally... There's nothing that has really made me feel like its the thing for me. But I'm a good student, enjoy math, and want to make a difference in the world, and I'm nearly complete with my econ. undergraduate. That's why I'm hoping the political economy, or economic development will be a good fit, and the WB, and IMF, and UN, are doing the things that I would love to get involved with.

 

And though there are various routes I could use to enter the WB, economics is definitely the best fit for me at the moment.

[kacharya]

I know your pain :) ...

 

 

 

Thanks, thats some wonderful insight. I was just thinking about all that. My grades are generally good, but I'm worried about a couple.

Do you think I should retake courses?

 

Its like till now, I really had never thought about what I would be doing when I graduate, it just seemed soo far away, and I always thought that things would work out in the end, without really having a clue of 'how'.

Now that I'm on top of my stuff, I've got straight A's for two semesters... But the first year is where I was enjoying being a college freshman.. :)

Any suggestions as to what to do about that? Currently My G.P.A is 3.45, and I Could probably get it to 3.7 by the time I graduate.

I have: 7A, 5B, 1C, 1D.

The D, is in a course that has nothing to do with my major, something I just took along the way, and it ended up not working out to well for me.

The C is in Micro Theory, but the only reason I got a C is because I tried to jump ahead of myself, and take it before I even had Micro I, or any other Econ. Courses.

I do have a loooot of extra-curricular activities though:

Resident Director: a rare position for a undergrad. student.

Varsity Basketball, president and vice president of two cultural clubs, several major conferences representing the school, including WoldMUN, in Taipei, Taiwan 2010.

 

I am hoping to get at least a Summer of RA work in, and a semester of Internship, before I graduate... Any suggestions as to what else would really help?

Thanks,

[AREStudentHopeful]

I'll be honest with you: the extracurriculars don't really matter. The C in micro will hurt you but the unrelated-early D probably isn't a big deal; I would either retake or get an A in an advanced micro course (if you can take one). Definitely go for the RA work and the internship would probably only be particularly valuable if you're doing something economics-related. Definitely try to get the GPA up as high as possible; particularly your math and econ GPA's.

[untitled]

But I'm a good student, enjoy math, and want to make a difference in the world, and I'm nearly complete with my econ. undergraduate.

 

Have you looked at global health? They sometimes even care about extra curriculars. There are also masters degrees in global development (DESTIN at LSE comes to mind), which aren't for everyone, etc. Also, of course, look at Ag Econ and Applied Econ programs, which often send more graduates to IGOs than do straight Econ programs.

[kacharya]

Thanks AREStudentHOpeful...

 

I'll do as you advised... I'm dreading to ask this, but do you still think I have a shot in the top 30?

[kacharya]

Have you looked at global health? They sometimes even care about extra curriculars. There are also masters degrees in global development (DESTIN at LSE comes to mind), which aren't for everyone, etc. Also, of course, look at Ag Econ and Applied Econ programs, which often send more graduates to IGOs than do straight Econ programs.

 

Do you think I should be changing my focus because of my grades or my interest? I do feel like Econ is the best fit for me...

[AREStudentHopeful]

do you still think I have a shot in the top 30?

 

To answer this, you'll have to ask your professors; they know best. They will know if students coming from your school have placed well before and if so, how you compare to them. Assuming you get a good GRE score, get some research experience and have quality LoR's, I think you have a shot; but once again, your professors will know much better than I.

[untitled]

Do you think I should be changing my focus because of my grades or my interest? I do feel like Econ is the best fit for me...

 

I'm not thinking about your grades - I didn't catch if you are applying this year, but if you are, your grades probably won't get you into the top 25. Given that you'll have to be very careful picking safeties that are good fits to increase the chances you enjoy (and complete) your program. But if economics is the way you want to get to your goal, you can do it and it really will be great - even writing your thesis! But I think there would be some value to looking at other paths which you might enjoy as well and which would get you to your goal (maybe even be better for your goal). So when I read:

 

Does a PHD student have to stay in the college while doing his dissertation, or can he go and get a job in another city at the same time?

How long does a dissertation take?

I'm thinking about devel. Econ. because I want to be able to help my country with its economic issues, do I have the right idea of devel. econ?

 

I think, in an MPA or a PhD in Health Economics (in a non-economics department such as a hybrid program) students often take internships or summer programs, and doing field work is much more common (field work isn't common for development students in many programs outside the top 35). Also, dissertations are probably less work and often more rewarding (as they eschew the theory section somewhat, which sometimes doesn't feel like it is relevant to the goal of helping). So when you say you want to help with "economic issues", if you mean macro, finance, or certain types of labor (and probably some others), then economics is probably the only way to go, particularly from somewhere with a macro/econometric focus. But if you mean to focus on one of household, microfinance, health, education, policy, and probably some others, then you should be open to other programs. I think if you want to study all of those, then microeconomics from an econ or ag/applied econ program will be optimal.