Applying to Ph.D. programs in the U.S. from Canadian undergrad

[HighSchoolKid]

What is the strongest econ department in Canada?

[Raiv11]

The consensus around here seems to be that it's a toss-up between UBC, UofT, and Queen's (and maybe Western), with McGill, McMaster, and SFU slightly below. Some give the edge to UBC, but it's a slight one.

FWIW, I'm at a Canadian university and my advisors have said that UBC is probably the best place for me to go for an MA, but it's not as easy to see which is better for an undergrad. Even if, say, one school does have slightly better research output, that's not quite enough; you also want a chance to interact with those professors that are successful researchers. I can't imagine the differences on that front being huge, though.

Generally, I don't think you can go wrong between the three (the degrees are probably indistinguishable, especially if you're applying to American schools), so if you're aiming to go to the school with the best econ department in the country, you're free to choose between the three based on other concerns, like location, scholarships, etc.

[slightlyconfused1]

Originally Posted by SlowLearner38

"....far out of proportion to what you'd expect from Minnesota -- which, outside of economics, is a thoroughly average flagship state university."

That is absolutely false.

Eh, really? In one sense you're right -- I shouldn't have said that Minnesota is an average state flagship "outside of economics," because Minnesota has unusually good graduate programs in a number of other disciplines as well. But in terms of prestige for undergraduates, which is the primary way that most people judge the overall prestige of an institution* (and is presumably more relevant when considering the qualifications of undergraduates vying for graduate admission), Minnesota is not distinguished at all.

For instance, the US News ranking of public schools -- probably the best indicator of general undergraduate prestige -- places Minnesota in a four-way tie for 22nd, along with Clemson, Texas A&M and Purdue. Although I do not have any hard data, my strong anecdotal evidence is that these institutions do not produce nearly as many candidates for top Ph.D programs as Minnesota, despite the fact that Texas A&M and Purdue each actually has more undergraduates.

This may not be solely because going to Minnesota improves your chances at a Ph.D program; it could also be attributable to better economics students self-selecting into Minnesota in the first place, or being more likely to pursue graduate school. The first, however, is implausible -- most people who attend Minnesota are from Minnesota, and almost no one has the foresight to plan for a career in economics starting from the end of high school -- and the second still suggests that attending an otherwise less prestigious school with a well-regarded economics department has benefits.

*A great example is McGill itself. McGill is by all accounts the most prestigious university in Canada, despite probably not being the best in research output -- the Shanghai Jiao Tong ranking of universities, which is heavily dependent on research, places it a fairly distant third behind Toronto and UBC. McGill is widely regarded as more prestigious, however, because it is more prestigious for undergraduates.

[SlowLearner38]

Originally Posted by slightlyconfused1

Eh, really? In one sense you're right -- I shouldn't have said that Minnesota is an average state flagship "outside of economics," because Minnesota has unusually good graduate programs in a number of other disciplines as well. But in terms of prestige for undergraduates, which is the primary way that most people judge the overall prestige of an institution* (and is presumably more relevant when considering the qualifications of undergraduates vying for graduate admission), Minnesota is not distinguished at all.

You said it yourself that most of the students at Minnesota are from Minnesota. Yet, the institution is not well regarded at the undergraduate level? The state of Minnesota consistently rates in the top 5 for IQ, based on education data. Wisconsin is also always near the top. A vast majority of the undergraduate population at Minnesota is from Minnesota or Wisconsin. So, why does it seem that students graduating from high school in 2 states with very well regarded public education systems, seem to prefer the University of Minnesota? It must be that the school has such a poor undergraduate reputation.

[slightlyconfused1]

Okay, I'm sorry for getting the thread off track, but this is getting a little ridiculous (and there is an important question buried underneath)...

1. The differences in average state IQ (as proxied by standardized tests of some kind) are swamped by cross-institutional differences. The "average IQ" of a state is an unnecessary and inaccurate proxy for the prestige of its flagship undergraduate universities when we have direct data on universities' standardized test scores. In this case, Minnesota has 25-75th percentile range of 24 to 29 on the ACT, which is decent but unexceptional among flagship state universities.

2. Think about this for a moment. Connecticut also does extremely well in education data; does that mean that the University of Connecticut is particularly prestigious? If you think that's an unfair comparison because Connecticut is too small, consider Massachusetts, which also does extremely well in education data. Is the University of Massachusetts at Amherst a top state university?

3. I don't know where you're getting your information about students preferring Minnesota to Wisconsin. By most accounts Wisconsin is actually slightly more prestigious in general.

[SlowLearner38]

Originally Posted by slightlyconfused1

I don't know where you're getting your information about students preferring Minnesota to Wisconsin. By most accounts Wisconsin is actually slightly more prestigious in general.

I didn't say that, or mean to imply that. I just said that the a ton of students from Minnesota and Wisconsin go to the UM. As for the Massachusetts example, I'd argue that students living in the vacinity of UMass have many more superior substitutes than students seeking undergraduate education in Minnesota. Anyways, sorry for derailing the thread.

[claphands]

With a few exceptions, I would say most flagship state universities are unexceptional in terms of undergrad reputation. It makes sense that among those, schools with top tier PhD programs do better with placements in those disciplines.

[HighSchoolKid]

Originally Posted by slightlyconfused1

I don't think it's ever wise to enter as an undergraduate under the assumption that you'll need to fix your profile with a master's afterward. Now, if the idea of economics grad school (or at least a career in economics) is very tenuous and there's only a 1 in 4 chance you'll actually follow through on it, then RaaR's point is well taken; but otherwise, you'll be much better off at an institution that's well respected for its economics.

U of T it is... thanks everyone.

[Canuckonomist]

Before you make your decision, you should probably consider programs like Western, UBC or Queen's. Toronto is HUGE, so face time with professors is more limited, and so your ability to develop a good rapport with those professor is also more limited. Letters of Reference are very important. They got my UBC friend into NWU, ULCA, Stanford, etc... and my other UBC friend into NYU. So, consider that "smaller school" affect too before you make your decision. Also, Toronto "bells down" sometimes to keep certain low averages. It's VERY competitive, and that part I find irritating. So, before making so quick a decision, consider a few smaller schools.

Canuck

[Nanashi]

If your going to stay in quantative fields I'd pick UBC, Toronto or even Mcmasters over Mcgill in a heart beat. I have to say as an america who went to canada, Mcgill doesn't seem to live up to hype. 4th year classes with 500 students isn't to impressive either. As far as quality of life goes it's really hard to beat Vancouver. If you right now are thinking of Economics. Honours degree in UBC's econ program is almost guaranteed admission to UBC's M.A. UBC's economics department offers nearly 50 of 75 unique undergraduate courses each year, so theirs tremendous flexibility to explore within the field. The trade off however is you have to face to admissions processes. You need to maintain 73 average or better to get into economics major and an at least 80% for honours. This can be a more difficult feat than it sounds. UBC has grade deflation at 1st, 2nd years. So play your strengths in the 1st two years as much as possible.