Schools culture? Where do students really care about economics?

[fthomassen]

To me it is very important to enroll in a school were students truly care about economics. I will soon graduate with my BSc in econ and business, and I am a bit tired of biz students who care about,

1. Finishing school projects in as short time as possible and with as many shortcuts as possible.
2. Making money
3. Getting an internship in McKinsey, allegedely to "learn".
4. Talking to people for the sake of networking.

, instead seeking people who care about,

1. Learning because of the interest of the topics in itself, in disregard of exams
2. The world and society in general
3. Truth.
4. Well, economics.

It is probably lesser of the former mentioned kind of people, but I have no idea about grad school culture. What about masters? In general, any comments about culture and atmosphere?

Thanks

[walt526]

I think that there's a world of difference between undergrad and graduate students.

A big part of it is simply a matter of maturity--many (not all, but many) 18-22 year-olds or so don't appreciate what an opportunity it is to be able to dedicate one's self to learning. It wasn't until I took some time off during my undergrad and worked in an extremely boring job that I became a dedicated student for when I transferred to another school to complete my degree. Another factor is that undergrads who don't have grad school ambitions believe that university grades do not matter--which is mostly true.

So when you get to graduate school, you'll find yourself surrounded be students who are a little older, possibly a little wiser, and are more personally driven than the typical undergraduate. In general, the more competitive the program, the more driven the students. A school like MIT or Stanford simply doesn't admit very many (if any) slackers who are looking to do the bare minimum.

Finally, it's also probably the case that academic graduate programs attract more of the type of student that you seem to be looking for than professional degrees. From what I've observed, most MBA students simply want to meet the bare minimum requirements and don't put a huge premium on truly understanding the material.

My one objection to your complaint is a desire to avoid networking. Graduate school (and academia) requires a great deal of networking (as is pretty much any endeavor in a competitive profession). I'm a pretty introverted person and making connections with strangers does not come naturally to me, but I've accepted that the effort/discomfort is necessary. Very few good ideas sell themselves--it requires a concerted effort to "win people over" so that they'll take the time to really consider your paper or whatever.

[puecon]

I know some people in graduate economics PhD program who were obsessed with economics, using economic theory to study real life problems, basically in doing "practical and relevant" economics, etc. But ultimately, many had to decide between a nomadic lifestyle of a lecturer at small state universities with a 4-4 teaching load versus obtaining a lucrative job in consulting, banking, etc. So, many ended up taking those private sector jobs. The placement record of the universities with many placements like that will not necessarily be indicative of the original interests of the students.

[puecon]

Originally Posted by fthomassen

To me it is very important to enroll in a school were students truly care about economics. I will soon graduate with my BSc in econ and business, and I am a bit tired of biz students who care about,

1. Finishing school projects in as short time as possible and with as many shortcuts as possible.
2. Making money
3. Getting an internship in McKinsey, allegedely to "learn".
4. Talking to people for the sake of networking.

In my opinion, the graduate students at most universities are not like that. What you described is a profile of a typical MBA student. Most econ PhD students are smart enough to realize that if these were their primary goals, they'd be in an MBA program or better yet, looking for a real job without an MBA.

[wind up bird]

Originally Posted by fthomassen

I will soon graduate with my BSc in econ and business, and I am a bit tired of biz students who care about,

1. Finishing school projects in as short time as possible and with as many shortcuts as possible.
2. Making money
3. Getting an internship in McKinsey, allegedely to "learn".
4. Talking to people for the sake of networking.

These people, for the most part, do not end up in graduate school for economics. Why would they? It's a ton of work for relatively little financial gain.

[Gecko]

masters that are meant to prepare for the phd program will mostly self select and sieve out those types of people which you don't want to see

[Ludwig]

It's the same contrast of attitude and environment that made me make the switch from law school to an Econ PhD. I decided that law school would surround me with a lot of non-intellectual types whose goals are radically different from mine, on top of the curriculum not suiting my intellectual desires. Just on the basis of the curriculum alone would I switch to an Econ Phd; but I really look forward to making friends in grad school, since I imagine that there are fewer "douches" there, if you will (and fewer people altogether, which does limit opportunity for douchebaggery).

[postgradecon]

While I was doing my master's at LSE, I found that most people were nice and interested in learning, and that goes for finance, economics and admin students. Of course not all of them wanted to go on for a PhD and for that reason didn't care that much about economic theory, but were still thriving for success. You have to keep your mind open to people who do not have the same goals as you do.

(My experience in undergraduate was a bit different, as a lot of people were just doing the degree to be able to find a job, any job.)

Anyways, I think you might have more chance of finding the people you're looking for in a PhD program, but I must say I find that quest ridiculous. You're gonna have to deal with a lot of different people during your professional and personal life, and it's a good thing to meet people from different horizons and experiences. Just because someone wants to work at McKinsey, doesn't mean you should disrespect him/her. It's one thing to be tired of students who don't care about anything, but obviously a student with the ambition of working at the biggest consultancies does care about success.

[fthomassen]

Originally Posted by postgradecon

While I was doing my master's at LSE, I found that most people were nice and interested in learning, and that goes for finance, economics and admin students. Of course not all of them wanted to go on for a PhD and for that reason didn't care that much about economic theory, but were still thriving for success. You have to keep your mind open to people who do not have the same goals as you do.

[...]

Just because someone wants to work at McKinsey, doesn't mean you should disrespect him/her. It's one thing to be tired of students who don't care about anything, but obviously a student with the ambition of working at the biggest consultancies does care about success.

You fail to undertand my major point: I dont need more people struggling to achieve success. I need more people struggling to deeply understand an obscure and irrelevant formula because they find the formula beautiful and deeply intriguing.

I have lots of respect for people struggling to get a McKinsey-offering, and considering the people who do that as isolated cases, they all seem to be perfectly sound human beings. Its is more the culture that emerges when you have hundreds of them, creating a homogenous, almost religious-like, atmosphere.

[Canuckonomist]

I'll make a note here that its not always the students who make the environment. Professors can play a role, too. A university with professors that are quite distant from the whole process can make what you're trying to achieve very difficult.

In a sense, you are searching out the fairy-tale that a large number of prospective Ph.Ds seek. An ivory tower, of sorts. But this isn't always the case, and I'll say that in my program currently, the first year is awful, and the core coursework is uninspiring. Perhaps it's so for anyone who has taken a (good) master's in economics first, but the first year Ph.D is more or less a regurgitation of this material with a little more technical asides. There is very little "economics" to motivate it all. Perhaps things become different as you move on to upper-years.

But for now I'll tell you, that, "If you're expecting first year to be stimulatin', I've got news for you son: You'll have 99 problems, and lack of that will be one."