Can I get back on track? (and HOW?)

[trev44]

Hi All,

 

This is my first post, and I must say that this is the BEST place to find information on all things related to econ/finance phd's so I must thank you all for contributing!

 

Basically, my goal is to be accepted into a top economics phd program. BUT, I'm quite a ways behind.....

 

My story:

23 years old

Graduated in 2012 from a good UC school for undergrad with 2 bachelors, one in Economics and one in Environmental Studies.

Overall GPA of 3.1. I messed up early, but better grades in my latter years taking harder classes.

I did NOT take enough math in undergrad (NO real analysis, linear algebra)

Been working since at a financial analytics firm.

Zero research experience (ouch!)

 

With your knowledge of the application process and about the difficulties getting in, how would YOU go about getting into a top phd program (top 10) if you were in my situation? I am willing to sacrifice an extra year or two of preparation in order to prepare myself to get into a top 10 program rather than a mid level program.

 

My guess would be that I need to return to school, and maybe get a bachelors in math, or is this not necessary? Can I simply take the appropriate math courses at local college and get A's to prove my competence?

 

Am I helpless getting into a top program with my low GPA? Would you suggest retaking classes to bump it up over 3.5?

 

It seems I need a way to reenter school, take the appropriate math course, get A's in them, do some research, and get to know my professors in the process in order to get great letters. So I guess the underlying question is: what is the best way to do this? Would it be to simply take more classes at a local college, reenter a decent undergrad school to get another bachelors in math, or go for a masters first and then apply for a phd program after?

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thank you all :)

[Icculus]

Please post profile in standard format.

 

The format to use is here. Please only post profiles, anything else will be deleted as these profiles are used for data analysis by one of our members.

 

 

PROFILE:

Type of Undergrad:

Undergrad GPA:

Type of Grad:

Grad GPA:

GRE:

Math Courses:

Econ Courses (grad-level):

Econ Courses (undergrad-level):

Other Courses:

Letters of Recommendation:

Research Experience:

Teaching Experience:

Research Interests:

SOP:

Concerns:

Other:

Applying to:

[sulebrahim]

you have clearly thought about your options. I think talking to your professors may be your best bet, as some of them may have been adcoms before.

 

One question, if you do a bachelors in math at your undergrad, does that affect your previous GPA or will the system commute a different one since you already graduated? I can see how that can boost your GPA and fulfill the math prerequisites at the same time

 

On the other hand, a masters program gives you the chance to do research and get good letters. And if you can get into one where they take the PhD sequence, that can be a signal as well.

[chateauheart]

You're starting off with almost nothing - a below average GPA with no math that a typical PhD applicant has taken by sophomore or junior year. Even getting into a "mid level program" will take more than a couple years of hard work, since there will be plenty of people starting off at a higher position and working on the same things as you are in the meantime.

 

To understand just how bad a 3.1 GPA (roughly 20-40th percentile depending on where you're from) is in terms of your competitiveness, consider that PhD programs usually are one tenth the size of undergrad programs in economics, and they not only attract most of the best undergrad students, but also an incredible amount of international applicants. So roughly speaking, to get into a program of the same rank as your undergrad, you have to be perhaps top 3-4% in GPA in your undergrad, all other things equal (with all the right classes). Right now you're not even close to that, and you won't get close in GPA regardless of how many classes you retake. Of course, grades is only a small part of the application, but the same problem applies to other areas of your profile.

 

Honestly I'm not sure you should even consider aiming for a top 20 program. Even if you believe you are far more talented than what your profile is signaling, the best Bayesian inference I can make even after incorporating that information is that you likely will not be successful in a top 20 program.

[Icculus]

I should have distilled my above post a bit more -- having no real analysis or linear algebra might be fine (and easy to fix in a few semesters), however what math do you have?

 

As CH above says, the GPA is going to be troublesome. I'm not sure there is anything you can do to get into a top-20 without some serious remedial work... I think a top-20 admit would require this:

 

1 - Take math and do well

2 - Goto a competitive masters program (2 years)

3 - Apply to Ph.D. programs after a gap year (so that all your grades will be in by the time you apply).

 

And even this is contingent on receiving glowing recommendation letters.

[sulebrahim]

If OP has taken up to calc 3, he could possibly get into an ARE masters where they take the PhD sequence. If he hasn't, he could take some math and apply to a masters in EU, Canada or a decent US MA.

 

I think OP has to lower his expectations, but the dream of getting to a decent Econ or ARE program is still there.

[Canuckonomist]

... If he hasn't, he could take some math and apply to a masters in EU, Canada or a decent US MA..

 

Assuming the OP is not Canadian, getting into a decent Canadian MA is very difficult nowadays. Our funding is short for International students. so we only take a few. Unfortunately, you'd be in the same pool as the star pupils from China, India, etc.

[Catrina]

Oh, he can certainly get into a decent program if he/she works to improve his or her profile, but OP asked about getting into a top-10 program, which seems highly unrealistic.

 

OP, look through the profiles of those who have gotten into top-10 programs. They are people who not only did really well in undergrad, but also had tons of math and research experience. If you add the tons of math and research experience, you would still be behind them. There have been similar applicants to you in the past who have gotten into top-40 programs--one of them got into U of Arizona last year. I would think that a top-30 could possibly be within reach as well.

[fakeo]

I have to agree that a top 10 seems impossible. A top 20 too. What I would do first is lower my expectations. Top 40 might seem reasonable after some hard work. But there are many questions that need to be answered before one can say what path you should take like what math classes you do have, or what grades you have in the important subjects (econ+math). So post your profile using the template above.

[trev44]

OP here. Thank you all for the answers and honesty, it's unfortunately what I expected to hear. I'm practically starting from ground 0, and maybe even worse due to my low undergrad GPA. I am hoping that if I can go back to school and get a bachelors in math with a near 4.0, admissions would see that and weigh it more heavily than my undergrad 3 years before. I am unsure if my math courses would get averaged into my other undergrad GPA, though.

 

Please post profile in standard format.

 

The format to use is here. Please only post profiles, anything else will be deleted as these profiles are used for data analysis by one of our members.

 

 

PROFILE:

Type of Undergrad: BA econ, BA Environmental studies at good UC school

Undergrad GPA: 3.1

Type of Grad: n/a

Grad GPA: n/a

GRE: practice exam 1 month ago, received 750 on quant without preparation

Math Courses: Only took stats in undergrad, had completed calc courses in HS. Have yet to take real analysis or linear algebra, however.

Econ Courses (grad-level): n/a

Econ Courses (undergrad-level): econometrics (B+), Law & Econ (A-), Public Finance (B+), Industrial Org Principles (B), Macro (A), Micro (A), Managerial Econ (B), Financial Management (B), Environmental Econ (B) and various intro level econ & accounting courses

Other Courses: many ES courses, which aren't really relevant other than GPA

Letters of Recommendation: none too strong, one potentially with a professor I got to know, but no direct research experience with

Research Experience: none

Teaching Experience: none

Research Interests: Environmental Economics

SOP: n/a

Concerns: low GPA, no letters, no research

Other: passed two Actuarial exams in the past year and a half (don't think this is relevant, however)

Applying to: ideally, top 20. Would accept a top 40.

[trev44]

OP again. Is there a complied list of ARE masters with the PhD sequence anywhere? It seems a Masters would be a necessary step in ultimately enrolling in a top 40 program.

 

Also, I remember reading somewhere that people are able to transfer to better PhD programs after a year, and sometimes even one quarter, if they show enough potential. Is this at all common?

[sulebrahim]

I can't speak for transferring but I know ARE schools like Wisconsin, Minnesota, Maryland, Davis etc, allow you take the first year sequence. MSU AFRE does that as well, and the MA may be less selective that it's rank should suggest.

 

Other schools like Clemson have an MA or MS program in econ, where you have the option of taking the sequence if you are up to it.

 

There are many more schools though, I don't know half as much.

 

But I think, since you took the calc sequence, you could start at calc 3 or Linear algebra and take some math before applying.

 

Some schools like UC Davis ARE allows Master Students to stretch out the core over two years rather than one, especially for those lacking the foundations

[Icculus]

Also, I remember reading somewhere that people are able to transfer to better PhD programs after a year, and sometimes even one quarter, if they show enough potential. Is this at all common?

 

This is pretty frowned upon, IMO. I think this is more an option for students whose key advisors have moved away or who have cultivated a new research interest which is not well-represented at the current program.

 

One other thing:

 

What are your interests within environmental economics? It is quite a broad field and I am curious because people with no research experience need to make up for that by having well-set and realistic research ideas to be taken seriously by the adcom. This is even more important due to your low GPA. Anything you can begin thinking about that makes you less risky as an applicant is good.

[Icculus]

 

But I think, since you took the calc sequence, you could start at calc 3 or Linear algebra and take some math before applying.

 

 

I'd tread lightly here... how comfortable are you with calculus right now? Regardless of your grade in highschool, could you handle the material now?

 

If you start at a level beyond your current capacity for mathematics your going to have a hard time securing that 4.0 in Math that you aspire to receive... and if your math GPA isn't stellar it won't do you much good given your background.

[trev44]

One other thing:

 

What are your interests within environmental economics? It is quite a broad field and I am curious because people with no research experience need to make up for that by having well-set and realistic research ideas to be taken seriously by the adcom. This is even more important due to your low GPA. Anything you can begin thinking about that makes you less risky as an applicant is good.

 

I am most interested in water resource management, but to be honest, I do not know more details about what exactly I would want to study with regards to that topic. Should I have a better understanding of what exactly about water management I would want to research, or would that be something I dive into during the first and second years?

[trev44]

I'd tread lightly here... how comfortable are you with calculus right now? Regardless of your grade in highschool, could you handle the material now?

 

If you start at a level beyond your current capacity for mathematics your going to have a hard time securing that 4.0 in Math that you aspire to receive... and if your math GPA isn't stellar it won't do you much good given your background.

 

Do not be afraid of "treading heavily," as there isn't much point in beating around the bush. I know the hole I have dug myself in, and am simply looking for advice on how best to pull myself out! :)

 

I am quite comfortable with calculus, and have brushed up on various math through Actuarial and CFA exams during the past year or so. I am confident in being able to jump right into linear algebra/calc 3

[mcsokrates]

OK, so here's some information that may or may not be helpful.

 

My undergrad record is probably pretty similar to yours (My GPA was a little higher, but not by much, and I had only Calc & LA). I did an MA at my undergrad institution, which was far from prestigious, and did extremely well there. I applied probably much less widely than I should have, but ended up getting admitted to a couple of top 50-ish places, and ended up choosing Oregon.

 

So its certainly possible for someone like you to get a PhD* from a ranked place. Top 10? You're gonna have a bad time.

 

*Well, get into a Phd program and pass the core exams, anyhow.

[sulebrahim]

OK, so here's some information that may or may not be helpful.

 

My undergrad record is probably pretty similar to yours (My GPA was a little higher, but not by much, and I had only Calc & LA). I did an MA at my undergrad institution, which was far from prestigious, and did extremely well there. I applied probably much less widely than I should have, but ended up getting admitted to a couple of top 50-ish places, and ended up choosing Oregon.

 

So its certainly possible for someone like you to get a PhD* from a ranked place. Top 10? You're gonna have a bad time.

 

*Well, get into a Phd program and pass the core exams, anyhow.

 

I would go to Oregon just for the football team's impeccable Nike jerseys

[trev44]

I can't speak for transferring but I know ARE schools like Wisconsin, Minnesota, Maryland, Davis etc, allow you take the first year sequence. MSU AFRE does that as well, and the MA may be less selective that it's rank should suggest.

 

Other schools like Clemson have an MA or MS program in econ, where you have the option of taking the sequence if you are up to it.

 

There are many more schools though, I don't know half as much.

 

But I think, since you took the calc sequence, you could start at calc 3 or Linear algebra and take some math before applying.

 

Some schools like UC Davis ARE allows Master Students to stretch out the core over two years rather than one, especially for those lacking the foundations

 

Can somebody explain what exactly an ARE school is? Is it a master's program that is setup to prepare you to apply for PhD programs, or to transition into their own PhD program?

[sulebrahim]

AREs are just Agricultural, resource and Environmental economic programs. Some schools have both econ and ARE programs others have one or the other.

In schools where they have both programs, they usually take the same micro and econometric classes as econ students but then their specializations differ after that. ARE schools specializing in resource, agriculture, environment, development etc while Econ specialize in the usual micro, macro, metrics, and sub-fields like labor, IO etc

[Icculus]

I am most interested in water resource management, but to be honest, I do not know more details about what exactly I would want to study with regards to that topic. Should I have a better understanding of what exactly about water management I would want to research, or would that be something I dive into during the first and second years?

 

It is good you already have a subfield in mind -- My advice would be to start reading up on the topic just so you can start learning about where the gaps in the literature are... it'll help you think about those issues like an economist. I don't think it is necessary to have your dissertation topic on lock before applying, but having a few concrete research ideas will help the adcom understand that you understand what it means to be an environmental economist.

 

There is a big difference between saying -- I am interested in water resource management and I am interested in water resource management and I am intrigued by the current literature regarding the impact of water rights on aboriginal art prices. I foresee myself contributing to literature on this topic by examining new primary data sources from X, Y and Z.

 

 

Now obviously that is a silly example, but I think it makes a point. You want to show that you are somewhat sophisticated and understand what economists do. This is particularly important in the range you will be applying since applicant fit is an important criteria upon which adcoms select.

 

As a sidebar -- I had a very prestigious environmental economist tell me once -- "Environmental economists are usually high on passion and low on rigor. Don't fall into that trap."

[trev44]

Wonderful, thank you so much for all the info. Sorry for all the questions, I'm trying to learn as much as I can!

 

If you don't mind, are certain types of Master programs going to better prepare me to transition to a PhD than others? Obviously, higher rankings will better prepare me as they look better on paper, and with stronger references, etc., but are certain programs designed solely to transition the student into their own, or another, PhD program?

 

If so, I would certainly aim to apply to these after taking the remaining courses necessary for a bachelors in math (unless the bachelor title is deemed unnecessary and receiving A's in the appropriate few courses is sufficient).

[sulebrahim]

As far as preparation goes, if a program teaches PhD level core in it masters, then it prepares you for the rigor as you would be taking it a second time when you start your PhD. So some programs in the US have that and some EU programs have that too.

 

Others can chime in, but that's just my take

[yankeefan]

Wonderful, thank you so much for all the info. Sorry for all the questions, I'm trying to learn as much as I can!

 

If you don't mind, are certain types of Master programs going to better prepare me to transition to a PhD than others? Obviously, higher rankings will better prepare me as they look better on paper, and with stronger references, etc., but are certain programs designed solely to transition the student into their own, or another, PhD program?

 

If so, I would certainly aim to apply to these after taking the remaining courses necessary for a bachelors in math (unless the bachelor title is deemed unnecessary and receiving A's in the appropriate few courses is sufficient).

 

Most MAs can be "transitional" (or preparatory) MAs, depending on how you customize them. Straight off the shelf most US MAs are absolutely terrible when it comes to preparing students for the PhD. However, if you talk to the DGS about your ambitions you may be given leeway to customize your degree, so to speak. This is certainly not the norm and its not something you will find on the department website, so you may have to email the program coordinator (or DGS - Director of Grad studies) to find out how much leeway you can be granted. You should also ask if the program has sent students to PhDs recently, where they were accepted and what their profile was like. Ask about research opportunities as well. This is of course assuming you are geographically bounded by your current job; otherwise you can just send out apps to Tufts & Stony Brook (really good MAs designed specifically for PhD prep). You will need more math on your transcript to apply for MAs, despite your passes in the actuarial exams. Calculus III & Linear algebra are crucial for substantial (read: less than superficial) study of Economics at the MA level.

 

On a side note, there are a few MA programs that offer partial funding, and less than a handful that offer full funding. But the current state of your transcript makes it unlikely you will receive a funded offer. Your best course of action is to take 2 - 3 math classes before applying anywhere; Econ programs tend to be somewhat forgiving about grades earned in trivial classes if you ace your math/econ courses.

[sulebrahim]

Yankeefan makes a good point in the leeway part. At my old school this guy was doing an MPP but he substituted his micro sequence for policy (which was more of an intermediate micro class) with PhD Micro, he substituted his quantitative methods with the metrics sequence and then took macro and some AG econ classes for his electives.

 

So if an MPP guy could do it, I assume an econ MA would have a bigger chance. This is where having the math background would help in convincing the DGS and the professor of the econ class.

 

Basically you have options.

 

Best of luck