Humanomics Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 I've made this argument before here, but wanted to post my treatment of it for those who haven't considered it or want to review the summary details. Economics Undergraduates Should Switch Disciplines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zweistein Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Interesting read! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moneyandcredit Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 While I don't regret majoring in economics at all, I do wish that I had doubled up in another social science. Sociology, Psychology, and Linguistics all appealed to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanomics Posted January 20, 2014 Author Share Posted January 20, 2014 While I don't regret majoring in economics at all, I do wish that I had doubled up in another social science. Sociology, Psychology, and Linguistics all appealed to me. This is a good point -- the post is aimed at the economics undergraduate who's considering which graduate programs to apply to. As an undergraduate, I had the fortune of getting the standard economics sequence, including topics courses (these are valuable for intuition and taste if taught well), a nice start with mathematics in the math dept. that I wouldn't have gotten without being pushed, and nice dash of other social sciences and humanities, like linguistics, rhetoric, sociology, and history by working with McCloskey. I think some mix like that is a really ideal combination of undergraduate training if you think you might like to switch out of economics proper long run. Though do keep on track with mathematics if you want to stay primarily quantitative or do computational stuff -- you will be in the running with math and CS orphans in these subfields even if you switch out of economics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tm_member Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I don't know why Graham writes these kinds of posts... He's just asking for trouble here and on ejmr! :-D My two cents; I'm of the opinion that Noah Smith and graham's posts are akin to a stock market tip... One says do an Econ phd, because XYZ, the other says don't do an Econ phd, because PQR. They both can't be right. People's revealed preferences make me lean one way but each individual has to weigh the pros and cons. Of course you'll never succeed if you aren't passionate about your field. If you are passionate about more than one, good for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanomics Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 People's revealed preferences make me lean one way but each individual has to weigh the pros and cons. That's exactly my argument -- the revealed preferences of applicants who have come before signals to people that an econ Ph.D. is a better choice, and I was presenting the cons of that choice. The pros are well known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catrina Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Humanomics, While I agree with some of what you wrote, there are some parts of this that I think miss the mark: 1. While this is a minor point, the first thing that made my skepticism meter start ringing was in the second sentence, when you stated that economics programs have the largest enrollment on campus. That may be the case on your campus, but it definitely wasn't on mine (Biology wins this by a landslide at my school). So, I decided to quickly Google it, and I found this: nsf.gov - S&E Indicators 2012 - Chapter 2. Higher Education in Science and Engineering - Undergraduate Education, Enrollment, and Degrees in the United States - US National Science Foundation (NSF) (see Table 2-18). While it only details fields covered by the NSF (including social science), even among social sciences alone, as of 2009, there were over three times as many psychology undergraduate degree recipients (94,743) as economics undergraduate degree recipients (27,628). Not only that, but the report lists more sociology degree recipients (28,836) that economics degree recipients, although since economics exhibits a faster growth rate according to the data, I wouldn't be surprised if economics has surpassed sociology. Of course, this is discussing actual degrees received rather than enrollment, which may be different due to students switching majors (and dropping out). I'm also not sure why you would think that the reason for the popularity that economics has is due to the success of economics PhDs, given that most students don't plan on getting PhDs. I would think that it is more due to the perception that economics graduates have better private-sector opportunities. Although this is anecdotal, that is certainly the impression that I get from talking to economics undergraduates. 2. My issue with the "economic intuition section" lies in the first sentence "given a homogenous opportunity (primary research professorship)." Sure, I'll accept that if your goal is to get an academic position researching something, or even researching something related to social science, your conclusion follows. But I would imagine that many future economics applicants feel the way that I do, that my goal is not (only) to get a primary research professorship, but rather to do economic research specifically. While of course I would prefer an eventual placement in a high-ranked R1, I would prefer a much lower placement with the opportunity to research and teach economics than a higher-ranked position researching and teaching some other subject. This would be even more true for those looking to study fields for which there really is no remotely close substitute elsewhere (like macro). I should add that this is an option that I have considered. I have a close friend who is a sociologist with a lot of connections at top programs. She is absolutely convinced that I could get into a top sociology program (much higher ranked than where I will likely end up in economics), would be willing to write letters/make phone calls for me to do so, and has been encouraging me to do so. The reason why I am not doing so is that I really want to study and research economics. I want to study economic theory in more depth than I have, and do research primarily using the tools of economics. There are applicants for whom such a substitution with sociology could work, but I think that would be limited mainly to those looking to do certain types of applied work in certain subfields (and a few other cases, like yours :) ). Of course, substitution with political science could work really well for those interested in political economy, and substitution with public policy can work for some others. For those applicants, I think that considering switching makes sense for the reasons that you mentioned. 3. While I agree that there are certainly valid methods outside economics, learning the tools of economics (and econometrics in particular) would be beneficial in other social sciences, particularly since I would imagine that at many schools, the undergraduate econometrics sequence is more rigorous than the statistics for social sciences course offered. I agree more with your comment here that the best option may be a combination of courses across disciplines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanomics Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Also - passion is not the major determinate of academic success. Nonsatiation is a given -- maximizing that preference ranking against constraints is what determines action -- and I was discussing the various constraints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catrina Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Okay, I think that the above post is the longest that I have ever written here. Maybe Humanomics' influence is rubbing off on me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanomics Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Catrina: my argument wasn't that economics UG majors should switch majors, but that economics UGs should apply to Ph.D. programs outside economics. For anyone who has, like yourself, a sharply sloped indifference curve between studying economics proper, and other consumption like access to top research journals, salary, prestige, and quality of undergraduates to teach, staying in economics at lower ranks is definitely the right choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catrina Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Catrina: my argument wasn't that economics UG majors should switch majors, but that economics UGs should apply to Ph.D. programs outside economics. For anyone who has, like yourself, a sharply sloped indifference curve between studying economics proper, and other consumption like access to top research journals, salary, prestige, and quality of undergraduates to teach, staying in economics at lower ranks is definitely the right choice. I think that the ambiguity in your title threw me off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanomics Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 I think that the ambiguity in your title threw me off. Yeah, that's what I figured. I hope the point comes through throughout the rest of the argument. I edited out the claim about economics UG majors being the most populated, and made a correction note at the bottom (without attribution, because I didn't think you'd want to promote your psuedonym). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaysa Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I agree a lot with this article. However, it is missing a critical component: people study economics because they are lazy. Economics just sounds like a discipline that can get you a job, just like engineering, accounting, or even law. Here are some other things 1) There are significantly more jobs in economics than there are in the other social science disciplines, and there is also more variety. 2) Economic jobs pay substantially more than other social science jobs 3) No one respects social scientists. So, why not get paid more? These are the ugly arguments that most academics like to sweep under the rug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tm_member Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Also - passion is not the major determinate of academic success. Nonsatiation is a given -- maximizing that preference ranking against constraints is what determines action -- and I was discussing the various constraints. Passion is a vague and very subjective word. I use it to refer to whatever it is you can draw upon to get through the PhD. You cannot succeed as a PhD without actually getting a PhD. I don't enjoy any other field enough to do a PhD in it... Maybe others do... Good luck to them! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankeefan Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Humanomics must cease and desist in writing these poasts until I get accepted into a top Poli Sci program. You're only making it more difficult for me by increasing the competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanomics Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 I agree a lot with this article. However, it is missing a critical component: people study economics because they are lazy. Economics just sounds like a discipline that can get you a job, just like engineering, accounting, or even law. Here are some other things 1) There are significantly more jobs in economics than there are in the other social science disciplines, and there is also more variety. 2) Economic jobs pay substantially more than other social science jobs 3) No one respects social scientists. So, why not get paid more? These are the ugly arguments that most academics like to sweep under the rug. Yeah, I didn't discuss the lower median salary. That's a good point. But what matters, again, is the wage structure any particular agent faces, and given that most good economics UGs will make exceptionally competitive applicants in other disciplines, comparing the medians straight away is probably not meaningful. You'll, I think, want to compare the right tail of pay in other social sciences to the median in economics, and that's probably competitive. I figure I would have made a top 40 placement, at the very high end of my offers in economics (and likely ended up much lower than that), and am at a top 5 sociology program and got an offer from the top ranked school in the nation and three others from T10-T20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishacker Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Sociology · The University of Chicago Hum, there are a few people who enter the program at the beginning of 21th century (and one before that) but are still on the students' list, which can really deter someone who wants to be a faculty member in the late 20s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanomics Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Yeah there are some ridiculous time-to-degree cases in sociology. The entire discipline is working on that, and especially at Chicago where the whole "you get however much time you need to fully develop your very unique intellectual product" idea has gotten way out of hand. Most sociology students complete in 6 years-ish, and largely because they're using qualitative methods that take longer to gather primary data. Quant sociologists can graduate in 4 or 5 like in economics, though it is still harder because the three essay dissertation has not made as great of inroads into sociology as it has in economics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForbiddenDonut Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 The major roadblock for me is that there is nothing interesting and worth studying and researching besides economics. As far as I know, there is nothing else in the world to solve except objective functions and Nash Equilibria. Welp, back to these problem sets... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanomics Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 ^lol finally some sense. consider all former statements retracted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishacker Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 ^lol finally some sense. consider all former statements retracted BTW, besides political science and soc, what are other disciplines that a econ student can consider? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanomics Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Welp, anthropology isn't much of a discipline anymore. Linguistics is pretty rad. Psychology is a good gig still. Computer science is quickly branching into doing a lot of social sciency stuff with text, big data, and so forth if you really like programming. There's a healthy movement of people doing simulations of social worlds, but it's small, and you'd be better off doing that from within somewhere like economics or sociology proper. If you like game theory a lot and want to do a more straightforward science with empirical verification of it, there's a lot of cool stuff in sociobiology. If you're into philosophy and ethics and so forth, philosophy programs are a good avenue, as are other humanities disciplines that aren't completely soaked in bullshit literary theory, like (some) Rhetoric programs. Humanities job market is extraordinarily poor. Oh, and just about any Ph.D. option at the T20 or so business and policy programs is probably a good career track for someone who wants to branch out but keep studying markets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaysa Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Yeah, I didn't discuss the lower median salary. That's a good point. But what matters, again, is the wage structure any particular agent faces, and given that most good economics UGs will make exceptionally competitive applicants in other disciplines, comparing the medians straight away is probably not meaningful. You'll, I think, want to compare the right tail of pay in other social sciences to the median in economics, and that's probably competitive. I figure I would have made a top 40 placement, at the very high end of my offers in economics (and likely ended up much lower than that), and am at a top 5 sociology program and got an offer from the top ranked school in the nation and three others from T10-T20. I agree. I strongly believe that laziness is a strong reason. People stumble upon economics, it sounds like a lucrative study, and stop their search. It really is too bad because you are probably right, some students would probably do better in other social science disciplines. Also, if money really is your main objective, then an economics degree pales in comparison to accounting and finance. Something that is very alluring about economics, though, is the option to apply it to other fields, such as development, health, law, and even pharmaceutical disciplines. Sociologists and political scientists could also probably study these topics, but there is so much unwarranted "stigma" against these fields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanomics Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Medical sociology is actually one of the older and more established subfields in sociology. There is also a ton of sociology of law, because organizations theorists have always been interested in how the "professions" work. There is development sociology, but as a rule, the closer sociologists get to studying markets directly, the more incorrect the theories get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catrina Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Yeah, I didn't discuss the lower median salary. That's a good point. But what matters, again, is the wage structure any particular agent faces, and given that most good economics UGs will make exceptionally competitive applicants in other disciplines, comparing the medians straight away is probably not meaningful. You'll, I think, want to compare the right tail of pay in other social sciences to the median in economics, and that's probably competitive. I figure I would have made a top 40 placement, at the very high end of my offers in economics (and likely ended up much lower than that), and am at a top 5 sociology program and got an offer from the top ranked school in the nation and three others from T10-T20. While that is true for you given your skillset, and would be true for certain others here, I don't think that one can say as a general rule that an economics undergraduate would place that much better in another discipline. The reason is that different disciplines require different skillsets and admissions committees value different things. For example, I get the impression from my sociologist friend that sociology admissions committees put more emphasis on research experience than economics admissions committees. An applicant with no research experience may get into a top-40 econ program, but I'm guessing he or she wouldn't get into a top-5 sociology program. Also, you are a particularly strong writer, and I'm guessing that other disciplines would value that much more than economics does. Anyone who has spent time reading economics articles can confirm that writing isn't a particular strength of many economists. (McCloskey needed to write her famous article on writing in economics for a reason.) I'm also guessing that you probably did very well on the verbal and AW section of the GRE. As evident from the roll call posts here, many economics applicants do not, and I'm guessing that other social sciences would place more emphasis on those scores. Edited January 21, 2014 by Catrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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