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UWO PhD-Stream MA vs UofT, Queen's or UBC MA + reapply following year to top PhDs


econunivranking

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As I understand it, Western Ontario's MA program is really kind of like a PhD program from which, if you are not good enough or don't want to continue, you can drop out with an MA. As a result of this, it seems highly risky to count on good references if one decides to leave the program with an MA in order to pursue a PhD elsewhere (i.e. it appears that Western does not want to be used as a stepping stone to go to other PhD programs).

 

On the other hand, Queen's, UofT's and UBC's master's programs are very much a stepping stone, and the norm is finishing with an MA, so there is no bias against those that want to move up and do their PhD at a higher ranked institution.

 

The question is: if you were accepted to all 4 MA programs and you had a guaranteed acceptance into the 2nd year of Western's PhD program straight out of its MA if you maintain good grades etc., and your ultimate goal was to get a PhD, would you risk not taking that offer in favor of an MA at Queen's, UofT or UBC, with the goal of using that as a stepping stone into a higher ranked program (or as a stepping stone into Queen's, UofT's or UBC's PhD)?

 

Additionally, what is the marginal benefit (if any) of going to a higher ranked US or British school vs Western's PhD? Would you consider Western as good enough to get into a tenure track position at a top 10 institution, or is that unrealistic?

 

Finally, how would you rank, in order, the PhD programs at UofT, Westerm, Queen's and UBC?

 

Please discuss strictly academic criteria. Assume that location and funding are not a concern.

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The question is: if you were accepted to all 4 MA programs and you had a guaranteed acceptance into the 2nd year of Western's PhD program straight out of its MA if you maintain good grades etc., and your ultimate goal was to get a PhD, would you risk not taking that offer in favor of an MA at Queen's, UofT or UBC, with the goal of using that as a stepping stone into a higher ranked program (or as a stepping stone into Queen's, UofT's or UBC's PhD)?

 

I'm not sure what I would do, but hopefully I can help you by answering the next few questions! It's a little unclear as to whether you're planning to use it as a stepping stone or if you're planning to stay, so I'll try and remain agnostic to those possibilities in my answers.

 

Additionally, what is the marginal benefit (if any) of going to a higher ranked US or British school vs Western's PhD? Would you consider Western as good enough to get into a tenure track position at a top 10 institution, or is that unrealistic?

I would say it is unrealistic. The question is, how realistic is it for you to get a tenure track position at a top-10 after graduating from any other institution that you might get into after doing an MA? For example, look at Chicago's faculty: https://economics.uchicago.edu/facstaff/. You'll note that almost everyone on their faculty graduated from other top-10 institutions. I'm not going to tell you that it is impossible to get a top-10 tenure track position, but remember that it is much, much harder to get such a position then to get admitted into a top-10 PhD program. Just something to consider.

 

Western's best placement in recent years was Iourii Manovskii at UPenn. If you are someone of his calibre it is clear that being at Western does not shut the door to you working at a marginal top-10, but remember that he was the best student that Western produced in the last ten years. It would be more realistic to consider top-50 US departments or top-4 Canadian, assuming that you are the top student in your cohort. Competition for tenure track positions is TOUGH.

 

Finally, how would you rank, in order, the PhD programs at UofT, Westerm, Queen's and UBC?

It really depends on what you're interested in. In general, UofT = UBC > Queen's = Western. If you're interested in Human Capital (stuff like economics of education, and crime) Western is a great place to be. Western is ranked as a top-10 department in that field (Field Rankings at IDEAS: Human Capital & Human Resource Management), and there are lots of old and young economists working on some really cool stuff (e.g. Lochner, Robinson, Bowlus, Caucutt, Mehta, Navarro, Stinebrickner, etc.). If you're interested in Auctions, Mechanism Design and Information Economics, there are lots of people working on that (Zheng, Goltsman and Pavlov are the main group). Lastly there is a strong Development contingent too (Conley, Livshits, Sicular [former AP at Harvard!]). The senior faculty all seem to really care about placing everyone in good schools, and I can say that even as a Master's applicant I had professors come up to me and chat about my plans for the future and that kind of thing.

 

I'm obviously biased, but I really like the faculty at Western on a personal level. I would encourage you to visit the school if that is at all possible and talk to some faculty members about the program. I find that Igor Livshits is an especially good guy to talk to, as he really does give it to you straight. He was the former grad director at Western so he knows what kind of a student you need to be to get into a very good PhD, and I have no doubt that he'll give you his 2 cents if you ask him about moving on to another school after 1st year. I'm currently taking the second semester of PhD Micro here, so I can answer a couple of course specific questions if you have those.

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Thank you setsanto, your insights are helpful as usual. Especially useful is listing the fields in which Western is currently strong at, along with the economists that are researching in those fields. That saves me a bit of legwork! Incidentally, on that note, I know that Western used to have a strong Monetary group. Do you know if there are any economists left working in that field at Western?

 

With regards to the possibility of using Queen's, UofT's or UBC's MA program as a stepping stone into a top 10 PhD, I guess the likelihood of that happening is rather low. My biggest worry was that if I were to face a choice between all 4 of the top MA programs in Canada then by accepting Western I would forgo the opportunity of potentially advancing into a higher ranked PhD program. But it has become clear to me that very few students are actually in a position to pull that off, so the guaranteed acceptance into the PhD program that all MA students at Western get is a very useful and desirable feature of that program if you are looking to get a PhD. That would save time, money and stress associated with applyng to PhD programs in Nov/Dec/Jan while completing the MA, and would allow one to focus on one's studies only. So for me, personally, ranking the MA programs with a view of getting a PhD would be something like: Western MA > UofT MA = Queen's MA = UBC MA. I will defer from ranking the PhD programs since most (if not all) of the top 4 PhD programs in Canada require an MA to get into, and hence the normal route for those wanting to get in from the Canadian education system is to get in from the MA programs offered by these schools (or to get in using strong performance from a lower ranked MA program like McMaster or SFU). So for a finishing undergrad, I would imagine that a ranking of the MA programs is more relevant.

 

Anyone who wants to have a take on any of these issues, or to discuss the fields in which the top 4 in Canada are currently strong in, is free to jump in.

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Incidentally, on that note, I know that Western used to have a strong Monetary group. Do you know if there are any economists left working in that field at Western?

 

Honestly I have no idea, as the field does not interest me in the slightest! Though before I forget, I forgot about the Financial Econ (Boyer, Stentoft, Bester, Knight, McGee, Carvajal) in my last post. Stentoft, Carvajal and Bester are all quite new, and with the introduction of the new MFE program it looks like the econ department is really investing heavily in that field. If that is a field that interests you, Western is a great place to be. Bester is formerly from Chicago Booth!

 

With regards to the possibility of using Queen's, UofT's or UBC's MA program as a stepping stone into a top 10 PhD, I guess the likelihood of that happening is rather low. My biggest worry was that if I were to face a choice between all 4 of the top MA programs in Canada then by accepting Western I would forgo the opportunity of potentially advancing into a higher ranked PhD program.

 

Don't get me wrong, that is certainly a possibility. UofT and UBC do send people to top-10 econ schools on occasion from their masters. Without seeing the rest of your profile, it is hard to say what your chances are.

 

That said, I'm a little confused by what you are asking about. In your initial post, you seemed to be asking about which PhD program would best prepare you for a top-10 tenure track. Now you seem to be asking which MA program would best prepare you for a top-10 PhD. Those are two fundamentally different questions. Typically, the top student at a top-10 PhD program will be placed at another top-10 institution. The rest will place lower. For example, look at Northwestern's placement record: http://www.econ.northwestern.edu/phd/phdafter.html. They had a very good 2013, but other than 2013 you'll notice that even top-20 placements are a rarity. You have to understand that getting in to a top-10 program by no means guarantees that you will become a professor at a top-10 program.

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I'm currently finishing a stepping-stone MA at UWO, heading to Toronto or UBC.

 

As a result of this, it seems highly risky to count on good references if one decides to leave the program with an MA in order to pursue a PhD elsewhere (i.e. it appears that Western does not want to be used as a stepping stone to go to other PhD programs).

 

This isn't true. There's usually one student per year at UWO that uses the MA as a stepping stone. Last year a guy went to Northwestern. The faculty is happy to push you, if you're good enough; plus the small class size makes it easier to get letters. Do talk to Igor, or whoever is running admissions.

 

That would save time, money and stress associated with applyng to PhD programs in Nov/Dec/Jan while completing the MA

 

It's possible to get most application stuff done in the summer: choosing schools, SOP, research proposal, planning LORs, etc.

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That said, I'm a little confused by what you are asking about. In your initial post, you seemed to be asking about which PhD program would best prepare you for a top-10 tenure track. Now you seem to be asking which MA program would best prepare you for a top-10 PhD. Those are two fundamentally different questions.

 

I understand the confusion so I'll try to clear it up a little. Initially, I wanted to know which PhD programs in Canada have the highest probability of placing students in a top-10 tenure track. The reason I wanted to know this is to decide where I should be thinking about going to get a PhD if I decided to get a PhD in Canada.

 

Once I have decided which PhD programs in Canada are most favourable for me based on the above criteria, it becomes, by association, easier to choose which university would be a desirable location to obtain the MA at. The logic here is that it is probably easier to get into, say, the PhD program at UofT if one also does the MA at UofT as opposed to doing the MA at Queen's or UBC because you may get references internally from the department. The same applies for all the other permutations: its probably easier to get into the PhD program at Queen's if one goes to the MA program at Queen's, etc. Additionally, if I were to do the MA at, say, Queen's, maybe it would be possible to get credit for some of the MA courses that I would complete during the MA and count them towards the PhD at Queen's (but if I would transfer to, say, UBC, that might no longer be possible; it all depends on departmental policy).

 

So I hope that clears up the confusion a little bit. It's kind of like a decision problem where you are starting from the result you want to obtain and work your way back in the decision tree towards the starting position.

 

As far as the fields that I am interested in are concerned, there appears to be significant overlap between them and all of the top 4 schools. Financial is deifinitely a field that I am interested in, as is development, monetary, information, labour, and international. I know that this is a relatively long list, but I wouldn't mind doing research in any of these fields, and I am sure that my interests and level of specialization will become more refined as I continue my education. Perhaps UWO is the best choice based on the above, while UBC might also be a good choice because of their strong monetary and labour groups.

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This isn't true. There's usually one student per year at UWO that uses the MA as a stepping stone. Last year a guy went to Northwestern. The faculty is happy to push you, if you're good enough; plus the small class size makes it easier to get letters. Do talk to Igor, or whoever is running admissions.

 

This is excellent information, thank you! This dispels all doubts I might have had about the UWO MA program. I am now convinced that, because of the guaranteed acceptance into the PhD program out of the MA while retaining the possibility of going elsewhere sets the UWO MA program above the rest.

 

UWO MA > UofT MA = Queen's MA = UBC MA

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One other thing that you need to consider is: how are the chances of continuing into the PhD program if you do the MA at UBC, UofT or Queen's instead? The guaranteed acceptance at UWO is obviously a plus, but it means less if there is also a high chance of doing the same at one of the other programs.
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This dispels all doubts I might have had about the UWO MA program.

 

It sounds like you're rushing this. Seriously, have a phone conversation with the grad director at each school, and talk it over with your brain trust (profs at your school, mentors, etc.). These people know a lot of relevant information that you don't.

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UWO MA might guarantee a place in their PhD, but UofT & UBC MA's might be better to have a chance to get in a top 10 PhD.

Am I wrong ?

 

The thing is that there is a big difference between the PhD Stream MA and the Regular MA at the U of T. Many students from the former go to highly ranked PhDs (Northwestern, Penn, Chicago, Minnesota, etc). I don't know of any regular MA students who have gotten into highly ranked PhD programs. This is both due to differences in perception, training and selection.

 

So if you are choosing between a regular U of T MA and a UWO MA, the latter might dominate the former, at least since you will be taking PhD-level courses (regular stream MA students at the U of T take watered down courses which are not at the PhD level), and you still have a good chance of going to a decent PhD program (including, for example, Toronto's PhD program).

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I don't know of any regular MA students who have gotten into highly ranked PhD programs.

 

Two students from the MARS got into Northwestern and Chicago in 2012-2013. That said, they did take PhD classes at UofT so they were, for all intents and purposes, MADS students.

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