Profile Evaluation 2015 [International (read: Indian) student]

[fatsho]

PROFILE:

Type of Undergrad: Delhi University (mid-tier college)

Undergrad GPA: Quite bad. Below average.

Type of Grad: MA in Economics from the topmost Indian college for a master's in econ.

Grad GPA: We have percentages so 69%. Top 10% of my class, but I took the hardest courses made available so if you account for course load, I should easily be in the top 5%.

GRE: Haven't given yet, but practice tests average around 167Q and I still have 5 weeks to go.

Math Courses: Linear Algebra, Optimization, Dynamic Optimization, ODE, Topology and Stochastic Dynamics (includes stuff like Bellman Equation and Blackwell's Theorem etc)

Econ Courses (grad-level): micro, macro, econometrics, game theory, social choice theory, dynamic macro, industrial organization, public economics, financial markets, issues in economic systems and institutions, topic in economic theory

Econ Courses (undergrad-level): intro micro, intro macro, micro, macro, econometrics, development theory, money and financial markets

Letters of Recommendation: One professor I'm RAing with (PhD from Cornell, best in her field- agriculture and nutrition economics), two professors whose classes I did well in-- one taught topology and advanced game (PhD from Princeton, pretty renowed), the other taught Industrial organization (PhD from an Indian University but he just one of the most prestigious awards in India for an economist).

Research Experience: RAing for the past two months!

Teaching Experience: none at all

Research Interests: Game theory. Experimental econ. Behavioural econ.

SOP: not yet written

Concerns: my LORs are in all likelihood going to be lukewarm. I have done well in classes but not taken initiative and not particularly interactive with professors. ****** undergrad too.

Other:

Applying to: US top 30. Mostly top 10-30. Not going to apply to top 10 for obvious reasons.

 

Basically, is there any chance I'd make it to top 30 with funding? Or should I wait a year and work on my writing sample/ LORs?

 

Any comments will be very much appreciated by this super-confused soul.

[Insti]

What kind of writing sample will you write? If it is no a paper which has been accepted for publication (or at least R&R), then I do not think it is worth it. Unless your letter writers say your writing sample is brilliant noone will read it believe me.

 

Now, you say your letters will be lukewarm. Are you sure? If this is true, then I fear you don't stand a chance at any program. Maybe we have different definitions of "lukewarm", what kind of letter would you say is lukewarm?

[fatsho]

About the writing sample, I was just considering something with enough math to show-off the only good thing in my application -my ability to do math. But certainly not something I can get published.

 

Like I said, I do well in my courses but I don't interact with my professors. They probably have seen me in class and know my name from my assignments and presentations and answer scripts but not much else. The RAship I'm doing is a two month project and it's not too challenging or requiring anything creative from me. Mostly, grunt-work. So, I don't expect my LORs to say much because my profs dont know me. And in that sense I expect them to be lukewarm.

[Castial]

I'd say you have a reasonable shot at the 20-30 range if your letters are good, 30+ if they are mediocre. The bad undergrad performance is going to hurt.

 

I'd wait for a year only if you're sure you can get better LORs from your professors which seems like quite a gamble in all honesty. They might give you worse LORs a year from now if they dont remember you too well.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Castial

[fatsho]

Is there any particular part of my application I could work at to make up for the LORs and improve my chances?

[fatsho]

 

I'd wait for a year only if you're sure you can get better LORs from your professors which seems like quite a gamble in all honesty. They might give you worse LORs a year from now if they dont remember you too well.

 

But I can do more RAships and hopefully build better relationships with professors, no?

[Castial]

But I can do more RAships and hopefully build better relationships with professors, no?

 

If you plan to RA for all the professors you want a LOR from, then yes it will be better. All I'm saying is dont approach a professor a year later whom you've not had contact with since finishing his class and ask for a letter.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure how it works in India. My general impression though was that research in economics departments is nearly non existent at most universities, is this still true?

[tm_member]

I'd say you have a reasonable shot at the 20-30 range if your letters are good, 30+ if they are mediocre. The bad undergrad performance is going to hurt.

 

I'd wait for a year only if you're sure you can get better LORs from your professors which seems like quite a gamble in all honesty. They might give you worse LORs a year from now if they dont remember you too well.

 

I have to disagree. A funded offer in the top100 would be extremely unlikely, in either case.

 

The OP should likely focus on getting into a good MA program in England or Canada before trying to go to US PhD programs, if they are serious about this as a career. The lukewarm letters, poor UG performance (at a non-top UG institution), and just 2 months of RA experience so far make the candidate extremely risky.

 

You should contact students who are doing PhD's who graduated from the school you are currently at. Your department chair or secretary should know some of these. Ask those students, honestly, how your background compares to theirs and look at the places they have ended up going for their PhD's. If few have gone to do PhD's directly after the Master's program you are doing, then an MA from the UK or Canada will be crucial.

[fatsho]

Wow. I wouldn't've thought it was that bad. People with way worse grades than mine at the MA level and no research experience have made it to places like Michigan, Washington St. Lois and Boston College, though I'm sure they were more chatty with the profs. The thing is mine is one of the only two colleges in India to consistently send people abroad and we have fairly well known faculty.

 

People with pretty much the same grades and mine and a couple of more months of RAship have made it to Penn State, Cornell etc. But again, I don't think I can match their LORs.

[fatsho]

 

Honestly, I'm not sure how it works in India. My general impression though was that research in economics departments is nearly non existent at most universities, is this still true?

 

On the contrary, it's thriving. Sure, there are very few schools who do it, but at the top schools such as mine there is A LOT of research going on. So, RAships aren't hard to come by. But that has a problem in itself, you get RAships only with people doing empirics-- I wanna do theory.

[Castial]

Well, tm_member knows more then with regards to admissions, so you should probably listen to him if he says a masters in Canada will help you.

 

If you plan to go for another masters though then you dont really need to wait another year for better LORs. Most Canadian universities will accept you as you are although funding will probably be off the table.

[tm_member]

Wow. I wouldn't've thought it was that bad. People with way worse grades than mine at the MA level and no research experience have made it to places like Michigan, Washington St. Lois and Boston College, though I'm sure they were more chatty with the profs. The thing is mine is one of the only two colleges in India to consistently send people abroad and we have fairly well known faculty.

 

People with pretty much the same grades and mine and a couple of more months of RAship have made it to Penn State, Cornell etc. But again, I don't think I can match their LORs.

 

Unfortunately, LORs are the most important component of the application. Also, your undergrad grades and theirs might be very different.

[fatsho]

Alright. Thank you for the much needed reality check.

 

Do you the Erasmus Mundus Master's would work as well? I can't afford a master's abroad without funding. Plus, that still wouldn't help change my undergrad scores.

[Castial]

Alright. Thank you for the much needed reality check.

 

Do you the Erasmus Mundus Master's would work as well? I can't afford a master's abroad without funding. Plus, that still wouldn't help change my undergrad scores.

 

It wouldn't help your undergrad scores but there are some really good professors in several Canadian universities whose LORs would go a long way to improving your chances.

 

Also, you come off as a less risky applicant if you've actually completed rigorous coursework in North America.

 

As for funding, you probably wont receive any direct aid but I believe the possibility for teaching assistantships etc still exist. Tuition isn't too expensive either for a one year masters. I believe UBC's tuition was 4.5k$ for this years MA program.

[fatsho]

Tuition isn't too expensive either for a one year masters. I believe UBC's tuition was 4.5k$ for this years MA program.

 

 

That's still unaffordable. And that's just tuition. Thanks for the suggestions though. :)

[tm_member]

That's still unaffordable. And that's just tuition. Thanks for the suggestions though. :)

 

Unfortunately, that's the reality you face. Funded offers from a top100 program in the US are not handed out to those with weak letters of recommendation, spotty undergrad records, and a graduate record that does not completely ease their worries. You say you took harder classes but adcoms won't just take your word for it.

 

You need to figure out how to get better LORs and the best way is another Master's program in western Europe or Canada.

 

I hope that makes sense?

[fakeo]

Are you sure your letters would be lukewarm? Profs might be better at recognizing talent than what you give them credit for. Maybe the best would be to talk honestly with your potential letter writers to see what they think you should do. If they seem enthusiastic and are ready to support you, then maybe the letters won't be that bad after all.

[fatsho]

Maybe the best would be to talk honestly with your potential letter writers to see what they think you should do. If they seem enthusiastic and are ready to support you, then maybe the letters won't be that bad after all.

 

Yeah, you're right. I think I'll ask them if it's a good idea to apply this year. Or what I can do to strengthen my application. (I'm just scared they will tell me I'm not Ph.D material, because I dont have a plan B). But this is my best shot anyway, I suppose. Thanks, man.

[sulebrahim]

Are you sure your letters would be lukewarm? Profs might be better at recognizing talent than what you give them credit for. Maybe the best would be to talk honestly with your potential letter writers to see what they think you should do. If they seem enthusiastic and are ready to support you, then maybe the letters won't be that bad after all.

 

I second this. What you may call lukewarm may not actually be. It could even be glowing or at least decent. I do think you could employ a double strategy if you plan on applying this year. I mean applying to both PhD and MA programs. You could get funding at some European schools. Even Canadian schools offer funding, although it's limited for foreigners.

[applicant12]

Have your LOR writers sent people to PhD programs before? My take is that they have, since you said they're famous. If so, ask them if they think you can get to schools you're interested in. They should give you their honest assessment (there is no reason not to). Or just ask them if they can write you good LORs. IMO, if you think your letters are lukewarm, they probably are. And if they are, with your current profile, I think it's unlikely you'll get into any top 30 with funding. As tm_member said, another master's from a good place would help, but it may not be possible in your case, so it's hard.

[applicant12]

Well after talking to a friend, I think you have a good chance though. 69% from your school is probably pretty good, and your school has consistently sent people to good schools here. I stand by my advice that you should ask your profs about how strong they think they can write your LORs as well as your chances at top 30. But if those are reasonably good, I think you have a good shot. My bad. Good luck

[fatsho]

Have your LOR writers sent people to PhD programs before? My take is that they have, since you said they're famous.

 

They have. They sent people to Michigan State, Cornell, NYU and Penn State last year. Yeah, they will have an idea. Like someone also said, my best bet is to speak to them. I will go and speak to them sometime next week after my detailed scores are out. Thank you for your input.

 

In case they are lukewarm, in your opinion is there anything short of another's masters that I can do to improve my chances?

[fatsho]

Well after talking to a friend, I think you have a good chance though. 69% from your school is probably pretty good, and your school has consistently sent people to good schools here.

 

Your friend knows more about grad admissions in general or people from Indian colleges? Yeah, academically my performance is pretty decent. I've taken hard courses and done well in them and all that jazz. But the impression I'm getting is that no one really cares about your scores that much. What role do the scores play other than (hopefully) keeping you from the elimination pile, in your opinion?

[fatsho]

Are you sure your letters would be lukewarm? Profs might be better at recognizing talent than what you give them credit for. Maybe the best would be to talk honestly with your potential letter writers to see what they think you should do. If they seem enthusiastic and are ready to support you, then maybe the letters won't be that bad after all.

 

So, I got around to speaking to my professors regarding LoRs. I showed them my shortlist (highest rated school on my list was U Penn and lowest was U Arizona) which consisted of schools in the rank 15-35 range. They don't think I'm aiming too high. In fact, one of them thinks I should also include a couple of schools from the top 15. That's good news, right? I'm taking this to mean that he will write me an adequately warm LoR.

 

In light of this, what are my chances like?

[NBZ]

So, I got around to speaking to my professors regarding LoRs. I showed them my shortlist (highest rated school on my list was U Penn and lowest was U Arizona) which consisted of schools in the rank 15-35 range. They don't think I'm aiming too high. In fact, one of them thinks I should also include a couple of schools from the top 15. That's good news, right? I'm taking this to mean that he will write me an adequately warm LoR.

 

In light of this, what are my chances like?

 

I think restricting yourself to top 35 is a very risky strategy, especially with a weak undergrad record. Check out the past Profiles and Results thread and you'll see that applicants with weak undergrad records have a much greater variance of admission results, even if they have fantastic grad records and/or RA experience. Looking at your profile there are reasons why adcoms may view you as a risky prospect - besides the undergrad record, there's the relatively limited RA experience, which also means there's only so much your LOR writers can say about you. Unless you are going for a top 35 or bust strategy, you should really think about adding in a few schools from say the 35 - 60 range.

 

At the same time your LOR writers have placed students well in the past so you should still apply to schools in the 10-35 range (btw, Penn is generally considered top 10 rather than in the 15-35 range). Basically you need to diversify in a smart way, concentrate your applications on the target range but keep a good set of backups in case things don't go as planned. It's expensive to apply to a lot of schools, but the long-run return is more than worth it unless you have a crazy high discount rate.

 

By the way while it is tempting to benchmark yourself against previous applicants from your school, remember that 1) they may have different undergrad records 2) they may have more research experience 3) just because they are attending top 30 schools doesn't necessarily mean they applied only to top 30 schools (did they?) 4) admissions tend to get a little harder each year. Similarly, advice from your professors is valuable, but they also do not have as much information as you have about yourself.