msmith79 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I've been doing some research, and I'm finding that it is doubtful I'd get into any PhD program, let alone a good one. I have a bachelor's in econ, with a 4.0 GPA, and fairly decent GRE scores(166V, 155Q), and I'm sure I can improve my quant score by 10 points or more. The downside is I went to a small unknown private school and didn't take any math. I have never taken a formal Calculus course. I can do it, but I have no proof. After looking at a lot of the master's programs, I probably can't get into most of them either. I read this "You get a master's degree in economics for one of two reasons: - you do not have the requisite math in your undergrad - you do not have the requisite gpa in your undergrad If you are absolutely sure you want to do a phd in economics, a master's in math or stats is a much better stepping stone." on a post here from 2007. I'm a little confused by it, because if I don't have the math for a phd or master's in econ, how would I possibly get into a master's in math? So basically, I'm interested in what I can do to get into a phd econ program. What master's programs are out there that are good to boost my application, which ones should I avoid, etc. Any help is appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Food4Thought Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Instead of dumping a ton of money on a Master's, why not just pay less money to be a non-degree seeking student at a nearby university and take the math classes you think you need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insti Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 I second the above poster. You can do it cheaper by just taking math as a nondegree student. Also, i dont think a master in econ would be a good move for you as you wont have the chance to take all the math you need. Also i dont think you will have the prereqs for a master in math or stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankeefan Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 I've been doing some research, and I'm finding that it is doubtful I'd get into any PhD program, let alone a good one. I have a bachelor's in econ, with a 4.0 GPA, and fairly decent GRE scores(166V, 155Q), and I'm sure I can improve my quant score by 10 points or more. The downside is I went to a small unknown private school and didn't take any math. I have never taken a formal Calculus course. I can do it, but I have no proof. After looking at a lot of the master's programs, I probably can't get into most of them either. I read this "You get a master's degree in economics for one of two reasons: - you do not have the requisite math in your undergrad - you do not have the requisite gpa in your undergrad If you are absolutely sure you want to do a phd in economics, a master's in math or stats is a much better stepping stone." on a post here from 2007. I'm a little confused by it, because if I don't have the math for a phd or master's in econ, how would I possibly get into a master's in math? So basically, I'm interested in what I can do to get into a phd econ program. What master's programs are out there that are good to boost my application, which ones should I avoid, etc. Any help is appreciated. Do a masters, or at least enroll in one (but not necessarily complete it, though it would be beneficial). Small unknown private school = no useful LORs. A master's at a decent state school could help with that. You will probably need to take some math as a non-degree student first. Any masters that admits you without calculus I or matrix algebra isn't a masters worth attending. I've written quite a few posts about selecting a good masters degree; I'm in no mood to search through my posting history to find them (though you're welcome to try!) but be sure to speak with the program coordinator prior to applying. Be very explicit about your PhD ambitions and ask the coordinator about recent placements by students into PhD programs. The vast majority of American masters degrees are useless for PhD admissions, but I've found that if you are a motivated and likable person program coordinators will be willing to work with you to design an appropriate course of study. You ideally want a masters in a school where the majority of your classes will be taught by tenure-track professors (as opposed to adjuncts, lecturers or clinical professors), and the school in question does not award economics PhDs, meaning you won't have to compete with PhD students for research opportunities and funding. The latter is a bit of a non-issue since most PhD granting schools don't award terminal masters, but its still a good thing to keep in the back of your head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
to2012 Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 You are sort of in a tough situation, as you lack both references and math. Given that you haven't taken calculus I think it's safe to assume that you actually aren't all that familiar with what economics research actually is, and so I think you would probably be wise to avoid spending too much money preparing for graduate school because you might not even want to do this. Ideally, you live in a state with a decent public university that has master's program in economics and so you can take math classes and do the masters affordably (and simultaneously, once you have Calc I out of the way). Alternatively, take the math basics in the cheapest way that you can and then apply to some affordable master's programs. I wouldn't drop $$$ on a master's like Duke if I were you because you don't even really know for sure if you want to do this yet (unless you are some sort of prodigy who is able to read and understand economics research with no formal training in mathematics). You really need to take calculus I before you do any of this and so I'd encourage you to do that this spring (if not sooner, if that's possible), and don't spend a ton of money on this pursuit until you know a little bit more about the field and whether you're interested in it or not. And to be clear: no one needs to do a master's in math first in order to do economics. There is a lot of math in economics but most economists don't really go anywhere near it in their work. If you want to do econometric theory or micro. theory then, yeah... you'll want to know some grad.-level mathematics, but even then, doing a master's isn't nearly the most efficient way to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmith79 Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 Appreciate all the advice. I am signed up to take Calculus I CLEP and will take Calc II in the spring and Calc III in the summer at the local community college. Of course, this won't be done in time to apply directly to PhD programs, and my lack of letters will not help get into a good program anyways. It's still difficult to find a master's program, but at least I will have 2 classes started by the time applications are due for most. I am looking at several options which are either funded or short enough that my remaining GI Bill will pay for it, and will give me a decent chance at getting into some good PhD programs. Would it be advantageous to target programs with faculty from well known universities? What else should I be looking for in a letter writer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicaffairsny Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I'm in a similar situation of trying to get into a phd program with an inadequate undergrad transcript. What has really worked for me is enrolling in a masters part time and working full time. I've been able to take 2 classes per semester and have a longer time than the standard 1 or 2 years to develop research experience. I stand a good chance at publication before I apply to phd programs and have much more freedom to pursue supplementary coursework and independent study. If you have applied interests rather than theoretical, work experience really provides grounding in how things operate in the real world, and will inform your research. This course of study allows you to really work out whether you have higher academic and research callings, as I'm inferring from your post that these weren't a consideration for you in undergrad. At the end of a part-time masters, which you could stretch from between 2 and 4 years, you will at the very least have a valuable credential, and at best have developed a strong reputation in your department, a strong grounding in the discipline you want to pursue, and hey you'll have made some money from working so you don't have to live poor as a grad student. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicaffairsny Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I didn't see that you had a 4.0 ug gpa when i made my comment. Unfortunately it seems like you got really bad advice from your advisors and you are in a bit of a hole. I still think work experience will benefit you, but you might be better served by a full time econ masters to get LOR's and taking the required sequence of calc 1-3 and linear algebra prior to masters application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chateauheart Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 That last piece of advice is only slightly less terrible than the previous one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmith79 Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) I'm in a similar situation of trying to get into a phd program with an inadequate undergrad transcript. What has really worked for me is enrolling in a masters part time and working full time. ... At the end of a part-time masters, which you could stretch from between 2 and 4 years, you will at the very least have a valuable credential, and at best have developed a strong reputation in your department, a strong grounding in the discipline you want to pursue, and hey you'll have made some money from working so you don't have to live poor as a grad student. Oh I guess I forgot to mention, I was already published as an undergrad. And I'd rather not spend more than a year in an unfunded master's, since I only have 1 year of GI Bill left. Also, I wasn't really there long enough to get much of any advice from my adviser, so I don't blame them. I did exactly what was required to get the degree, and I did it in 2 years and a summer. So the lack of math, unfortunately, is on me. GI Bill considerations and all. Edited October 27, 2014 by msmith79 forgot a sentence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Econhead Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Oh I guess I forgot to mention, I was already published as an undergrad. And I'd rather not spend more than a year in an unfunded master's, since I only have 1 year of GI Bill left. Also, I wasn't really there long enough to get much of any advice from my adviser, so I don't blame them. I did exactly what was required to get the degree, and I did it in 2 years and a summer. So the lack of math, unfortunately, is on me. GI Bill considerations and all. I understand where you are coming from, but most people end up with some type of debt. If you're dedicated to getting a Ph.D, take the time to make up for your deficiencies. You need math - not just a little math, a LOT of math. Your options (as noted above) are essentially: 1) Take just enough community college math and apply to poorly ranked Ph.D programs and possibly get in. 2) Take just enough community college math to get into a master's program that will be largely unhelpful, but potentially be enough to get you into a funded Ph.D program. 3) Take courses at a nearby state school (or move someplace where you can), and get all the math prep that you need, especially Calc 1-3, Calc based stats, real analysis, linear algebra, and a Grad Level Micro course. Apply to Master's or Ph.D programs from here. As others have noted, you're problem is two fold: you need both letters and coursework. Option 1 above won't get you the letters you want. Option 2 may produce letters, but you are still likely to end up in a low ranked program, and you may not be able to apply after your first year if you have not been able to garner letters. Option 3 is best (as you should well recognize). Also: Don't underestimate your ability to improve your GRE score substantially. Moving from a 155 to at least a 165 is moving from 60th percentile to at least 90th percentile. It's possible, and it happens, but it's dangerous to just expect that you'll be able to. Some can't, it's just how it is. If you can't get at least a 160, option 3 feels like a must. Back to loans: I'm not sure why you are so loan adverse. My wife and I have worked very hard to keep our loans very low, but this has made our road much tougher and slower. -And I'm not sure that we are really better off for it. You have two options for master's funding. 1) you can follow the route that Yankee indicated, or 2) you can attempt to get into a Master's at a very large state school. Very large state schools tend to have a much greater need for graduate student employees, even outside the department. Many of these positions, even though you might be effectively working as a secretary, offer tuition waivers and sometimes stipends. So although they may not offer funding to master's students (because they have a Ph.D program), there may still be a way for you to get your degree paid for. This would be something to discuss prior to applying. Finally, you have not indicated whether you are interested in working in industry or becoming a professor. If your goal is industry, you can take an easier route to a Ph.D and still find a job (although the better the Ph.D program, the better the placement). If you want an academic job, you really need to aim for Top 50 (so, follow option 3 above). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhDPlease Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 What I would do if I were you would be to go full time for 1 year as a non-degree student (since you mentioned you have the bill to pay for this) and as a 1st priority take math classes. To the extent that you have extra room in your schedule (since you can only take a limited # of math courses at once due to many of them being cumulative), I would also take some econ courses and try to build relationships with professors. Maybe you can even do an RA project for a professor. I think it easier to get into the university as a non-degree student so I don't think you'd have concerns about finding a university to let you take classes. Then you will probably need a few more classes (due to the math classes needing to be scheduled sequentially so you cannot cram them all into 1 year), so what I'd do after that is try to work somewhere like the Fed or a think tank or RA at a university. Those programs usually have a tuition benefit and are also a good chance to gain research experience and get a recommendation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strategyproof Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Do a masters, or at least enroll in one (but not necessarily complete it, though it would be beneficial). Small unknown private school = no useful LORs. A master's at a decent state school could help with that. You will probably need to take some math as a non-degree student first. Any masters that admits you without calculus I or matrix algebra isn't a masters worth attending. I've written quite a few posts about selecting a good masters degree; I'm in no mood to search through my posting history to find them (though you're welcome to try!) but be sure to speak with the program coordinator prior to applying. Be very explicit about your PhD ambitions and ask the coordinator about recent placements by students into PhD programs. The vast majority of American masters degrees are useless for PhD admissions, but I've found that if you are a motivated and likable person program coordinators will be willing to work with you to design an appropriate course of study. You ideally want a masters in a school where the majority of your classes will be taught by tenure-track professors (as opposed to adjuncts, lecturers or clinical professors), and the school in question does not award economics PhDs, meaning you won't have to compete with PhD students for research opportunities and funding. The latter is a bit of a non-issue since most PhD granting schools don't award terminal masters, but its still a good thing to keep in the back of your head. Second this. Great post. Low-cost school with decent research-active faculty is the way to go, take extra math classes. Enrolling in math courses outside a degree program is not likely to work because you need reference letters. And people won't be motivated to advise you and write great letters unless they can place you out of their program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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