Rejected from target schools...now what?

[rejectioncity]

I had one acceptance to a safety school but was rejected from all the top 20 schools to which I applied. My safety school is ranked roughly 35th.

 

Here is the question:

 

Is it common for a person rejected to spend a year improving his/her profile and then reapplying to a list of equivalent schools?

 

 

My weaknesses:

From a small state school (not a lot I can do about this)

Scored a 163Q on my GRE.

 

 

My profile is otherwise strong. I am finishing two honors degrees in pure mathematics and economics with two minors. I have 18 months worth of research experience that will culminate in a senior thesis that will publish in my school' research journal. I am also submitting it to other journals. I have excellent letters of rec. but none from any big names.

 

My thoughts:

- I took the GRE without studying. I want to spend a bit of time studying and retake aiming for a 168 or higher.

- I plan to take two graduate level mathematics courses this summer

 

 

Anyone have any other ideas of how I might improve my chances for admission to a top program?

 

 

Also - what if I accept this current school's offer. Is it a faux pas to then apply for top tier schools next year? Is this common?

 

 

 

 

I really need some informed advice here. Thanks to all!

[teddyb]

I'd say retake the GRE, find an RA position, and reapply next year. There are numerous cases of "rejected by all top 20 one year ago, RA with young famous prof, then got into top 5 this year"

 

See, for example, this post: http://www.www.urch.com/forums/phd-economics/154463-research-assistanship-before-phd.html

[mcsokrates]

So. Some things:

 

- I guess I just don't particularly sympathize, which will color the rest of my points. You selected a list of schools, presumably because you would accept and offer and go there if admitted. You were admitted. Your feelings are hurt because you are not a special flower, but you have an admission to a top-40 school.

 

- Without knowing your full profile, its hard to judge how "strong" your profile is.

 

- Do you want to study economics, or do you want to study economics at a "top place"? If the latter, why? What research do think you will be able to accomplish at a top 20 place that you wouldn't be able to do at the safety school?

 

- Accepting admission with the intention of trying to immediately move up the ranks may or may not be a faux pas, but does not exactly reflect well on your character (also, it reveals a degree of naivete that is either hilarious or frightening). In any case, finding the free time to put together applications while taking first year classes seems like a great way to die of a stress-induced aneurysm. A not implausible outcome would be that you spend your capital at the safety school, still get rejected everywhere, and then fail quals because you were too busy trying to apply to other places to concentrate on first semester core micro.

 

- Your subjective view of your strength is obviously at odds with the view of several top 20 admissions committees. Update your priors accordingly (hint: the posterior distribution will have more weight on "you are not a special flower")

 

 

This is 3x more harsh than is necessary (I'm grumpy, deal with it) but I'm serious: you need to think hard about whether giving up on a sure acceptance to a top-40 place is worth a highly uncertain possibility of moving up, with significant downside risk.

[chateauheart]

I don't think the post above is harsher than necessary.

 

I have 18 months worth of research experience that will culminate in a senior thesis that will publish in my school' research journal. I am also submitting it to other journals.

..

My thoughts:

- I took the GRE without studying. I want to spend a bit of time studying and retake aiming for a 168 or higher.

- I plan to take two graduate level mathematics courses this summer

 

These, and that question about weaseling your way out of an accepted offer, really show a stunning lack of perspective both about the admissions process and career you're about to embark on. I don't think you're ready for a career in grad school, but you're clearly even less ready for a year of gaming the admissions system to move up a few ranks.

 

My advice: take the offer, which you're probably quite fortunate to have compared to the swaths of much more mature and personable candidates who can't demonstrate those traits through grades, and focus on doing solid academic work and actually learning how to do that from people around you.

Edited February 24, 2015 by chateauheart

[rejectioncity]

1. I nowhere stated that I believe myself any more special or deserving than another person applying to the same range of schools. I think most reasonable people would agree that there are many, many qualified and capable candidates who are not accepted into top programs for myriad reasons. Furthermore, I am certain that there are people who have been rejected from a school, improved their profile and then gained admittance.

 

2. I care about ranking because the world cares about ranking. If you deny that the prestige of your PhD granting institution can play a large role whether or not you get your ideal job then perhaps you should view yourself thru the same shade of cynicism. I - just like every other student - want to attend the best institution possible because I want to maximize the return on my five-year investment. Much of my school selection has to do with placement record. Because networks matter.

 

3. Accepting my rejections and asking for advice on a economics forum about how to better position myself for admittance to top economics programs is really not the same thing as me having my feelings hurt about not being a 'special flower,' as you so rudely put it. I want to better myself and try again. Would you rather I simply give up?

 

And my 'subjective view of my strengths' is a view carefully crafted with feedback from peers and mentors. I blew the GRE on my own and I know for sure that this hurt my chances. Performing poorly one time on one test doesn't mean that I am not a smart person or strong candidate. It means I performed poorly on one test one time. The same professors that recommended I target certain schools also advised me not to target others. I don't have a team of yes men in my corner.

 

 

And finally, in response to your opening salvo, I didn't ask for your sympathy. I didn't whine and lament my misfortune of having gained admittance to a decent program instead of one of the best programs. I stated facts and asked for advice. You let your emotions rather than rationality dictate your response. I consider it mostly useless.

 

I know that competition is steep and I am very aware of the fact that I come from a certain school, of the fact that I blew the GRE and of the fact that If I eventually get into one of these schools I will be have to be the hardworking smart guy instead of the game changing genius. This was my very first post on this forum. Thanks for confirming my suspicion that seeking help from an online community was as pointless as it sounds. You've really helped inform my opinion about this forum!

 

 

 

 

 

3.

[rejectioncity]

Why is mentioning that I won't have prominent publications but will have a senior thesis available to submit indicative of immaturity? Furthermore, why are people interpreting this post so harshly? It was a simple question - what types of things do people in my situation generally consider to improve his/her application profile and what are the common courtesies and customs regarding moving from one program to another.

 

How

[chateauheart]

I am very aware of the fact that If I eventually get into one of these schools I will be have to be the hardworking smart guy instead of the game changing genius..

 

A needlessly defensive post ends with a statement lamenting that one will only be smart, and more precisely not a genius, if he eventually arrives at one of the twenty schools he was just rejected from.

 

You should really start college again; I suspect you didn't find your way through the humbling part of 18-22 year old development.

[rejectioncity]

And we descend entirely into the abyss. Yes, it is entirely appropriate for a person to berate me but inappropriate for my to respond. It is also appropriate for you to second the berating but again inappropriate for my to respond. And stating that I will need to work very hard to be successful in a program full of incredibly intelligent and capable people...obviously a sign of poor social development.

[mcsokrates]

I've eaten dinner, and am hence less cranky (see Danziger et al (PNAS, 2011)).

 

So, again, but a bit gentler:

 

- You applied to a top 35 program, presumably because it was a program you would be willing to go to. You are admitted to this program. If you did not have any intention of matriculating, why did you apply there?

 

- You seem to believe that you can do better (which is possible), and want advice. You have received advice, from two people: given what little information we have, it seems highly unlikely that the discounted expected flow of benefits from a "try to do better next year" strategy is greater than the flow from just taking yes for an answer.

 

- If it matters, I tell almost everyone I meet, at one point or another, that they are not a special flower. So, on at least two levels, you are not a special flower. (This is funnier to me than anyone else, but whatever.)

 

TL;DR: take yes for an answer.

[scholar]

The fact that you were rejected by your preferred schools has nothing to do with your GRE score. The admission to top places is very competitive, so you should simply acknowledge this and move on to do your research, if that's what you are after.

[IMB8000]

ill give you some advice you'll like more than just accept the offer.

 

if you are set to give this another go, go try to be an RA at somewhere bigger and more prestigious. It might help you overcome the small school syndrome. And better your GRE, and take more math classes. However, beware that next year or in two years itll still be possible to get rejected from all the schools you want. (Your experience as an ra seems to indicate that the problem in your application was not due to lack of research). Thats basically the extend of things you can really do to boost your profile.

 

Furthermore, ill go ahead and disagree with the posters above, dont go to that school. I do find it kind of dumb that you applied when you had no intention of going but if you are going to have a bad attitude towards it before you even get there, you are going to be miserable there.

 

However, personally ill take the offer you got since its a good school enough school so you have all your career choices open and im guessing its a good fit for you. And if you go to the visiting days, you'll probably see that it is a good place.

 

(side-note: this whole thing reminds me of the old joke "I dont want to be part of any club thatll have me as a member")

[Santigarza]

It is hard for me to understand a situation like yours. I think you should be extremely happy that you got into a place ranked 35th!

 

I have seen a lot of people in the forum not being realistic about their chances of being admitted in top programs. The application's game has a lot of logic and the market generally tells you where you should be.

 

Just a bit about my story. I am an international applicant. Sure I am somewhat promising in my country. I got an excellent GPA in my undergrad, got plenty of research and teaching experience, some awards, a publication in a regional Journal and excellent letters. Nevertheless, regarding applications I have plenty drawbacks: from an unknown country (but with some successful PhDs in economics in top programs and tenure Professors), unknown program, old and out of school for 4 years, just 165 Q GRE, and excellent letters but not from very well known people.

 

So when applying I tried to be realistic. Of course, I give a try in many top 10, top 20 and top 30 programs. It is my dream to go there, as most of us. Despite this, according to my research and advice from other people, I knew I had high chances in Programs ranked 40th and down. Results so far? Pretty consistent I have admitted in all those programs and being rejected from higher ranked ones. And I am extremely happy with my results!! I have been admitted to great programs, where other great candidates could not make it. I have been offered great funding also!

 

It all depends on which your objectives are. I want to be a scholar, learn how to do research and spend my life doing this. If it is in one of the best schools, it would be a dream come true. If not, I will work hard and develop my goals in other great place. Can I do any better? There may be some things to improve but, anyway, I don't think I could make to top programs. There are things that I can not change at this stage. And, if so, how much could I improve? At what cost? One more year may be too much.

 

I think you need to ask yourself if the additional investment would be worthy, would it make any difference? If you would like to reapply you should chance your strategy. It seems to have been really awful if you just applied to top 20 and a safety ranked 35th which you would not attend. It was not according to your actual possibilities, you certainly overlooked too much information.

 

Finally, as it was stated above, if you don't realize how lucky you were for that offer and appreciate the program in which you could start a new life, then it is not worthy to go through the pain

[yankeefan]

10 replies and no one has mentioned Canadian/European MAs???

 

I miss the old TM so much :blue:

[Santigarza]

10 replies and no one has mentioned Canadian/European MAs???

 

I miss the old TM so much :blue:

 

Uuuuuoooooppppppsss!!

 

Great advice, totally forgot about that. Some places to start looking in Europe: UCL, CEMFI, Carlos III, LSE, Bologna, Bocconi, Barcelona GSE, Warwick, Toulouse, Paris School of Economics, Tilburg

[pch]

OP, I do agree that perhaps you were treated too harshly, but there are some valid points. GRE plays a role but you may be overestimating it. But still, the fact that you took it without studying for it is in fact a sign of immaturity. We can't tell much without seeing your full profile, but the fact that all top 20 rejected you means they must have had some concerns about you and likely they were a little more than just GRE. The thing is, that you may work to upgrade your profile but you may not only not get admission to top 20 but also your top 35 school may not want you anymore. It is quite a risky game.

If you do want to take the risk, best strategy is usually to take grad classes, do RA work, retake GRE. again, cannot tell much without seeing full profile.

 

This is my personal view, but I think it is not very nice of you to apply to other programs once already in a program. I would even say, it is unrealistic that you will find the time for it.

The only chance this is feasible is that you will excel at your top 35 program and clearly stand out. Unrealistic but still. Other good reasons are if your interests change and you find yourself unable to pursue them at your top 35 school. But then - why did you apply there in the first place?

[rawls234]

Placement matters and the difference between placement from a school that's roughly 35th and top 5 in the world is huge. Just look at any of the placement stats - I come from an undergrad school that's in the top 20/25 for graduate programs and the placement even from there is pretty bad compared to the top 5 schools.

 

In any case, you all need to lighten up on the guy and in general. It's soul-crushing to work so hard and then just get rejected from all the top programs and admittedly if you were in the same situation you would probably be desperately searching for answers. This admissions process is brutal enough compared to other disciplines and the least we can do on this forum is respect each other and not try to give more reason for a person to be completely demoralized after tough admissions decisions.

 

Regarding this particular situation, it's a tough decision to make, but ultimately you shouldn't ask the people on here for advice (admittedly, we all know very little as we're all going through the process or in phd programs). You should ask your professors and people that know you well and look closely at the placement from the program for previous years as well as the research interests of the faculty and see if you think you can accomplish what you want to at this school and get to where you ultimately want to be. Ultimately, no one here knows enough about you to help you make this decision, but I totally empathize and wish you the best of luck going forward. Regardless of what you do or choose, you're clearly a relatively smart person with a very solid resume and I'm sure you could be successful in tons of things besides academic economics research and still live a happy life so even though things seems ****** now, things in the end will most likely be just fine.

[fantinity]

Wow, people, why so negative?

 

seriously though, as people already mentioned, I doubt that the problem lies in the GRE, although if you try again you should definitely fix it. If you say that your profile is otherwise good, then maybe what's hurt you was what you can't see - the reference letters, is that possible? Further, I recommend posting the full profile, because it's hard to recommend you something without seeing it.

[jrdonsimoni]

----- Edited February 24, 2015 by jrdonsimoni
unnecessary comment :)

[ZYX]

Based on the information in the original post, the two main issues are LoR reputations and the GRE quant score.

 

I think some schools screen applicants based on their GRE quant score, so this may have put you into the automatic reject pile at various places.

 

If your LoRs have a lack of connections at top schools (eg. PhD, coauthors, visiting positions, AP) this may also be a reason for you being rejected by most schools.

 

Assuming most of the econ/maths grades are As, I don't see a masters being much use, but you need to get a full time RA position to get better LoRs, and retake the GRE to get a better quant score.

 

Also I don't see the point in take grad maths modules either, as they are unlikely to help much with economics PhD admissions. PhD micro/metrics would be far more useful modules to take, ideally at a well-known school.

[Michalz]

I can understand that you don't feel like going to the school that accepted you even though you applied there (so, at some point you thought that going there isn't out of question). I did this last year: I was accepted to some European programs which defnitely aren't too bad and in the beginning of the process I thought I would be ok to go there. But after the fact somehow I felt that I won't be ok - and I didn't go. However, I made this decision because I had RA opportunity and it looked to me that spending 1 year as RA will indeed improve my chances. If I didn't have clear and realistic plan about improving my chances in the next cycle I would either accept the offers I had or resign from PhD at all.

 

Did it work? Yes, it did. I got into Top10 program and I am very happy about it. Am I spending another 1 year as RA to get into Top2? No, I'm not because I don't see reasonable chance of achieving this and even if I did, I think that the potential gains aren't large enough to sacrifice 1 year. So my point is that you need to think if you have clear plan of improving your chances and if the cost of this plan is smaller than potential gains. Personally I don't think that improving GRE will be enough. And if you don't have the plan, don't believe in miracles - if you didn't get in this year, you most likely won't get in next year just by chance.

 

Also, bear in mind that being exposed to all admits&rejections in recent weeks and visualizing your future life in some Top20 school probably makes your assesment of the program you got into more negative than it really should be - and more negative than it will be in couple of weeks when the emotions go down.

[undecidedman]

my take:

 

you shouldn't have applied to places outside top20 if you weren't willing to go.

but this is just a mistake, you obviously don't have to go.

Do as you wish, I sympathize with your unwillingness to go to a lower ranked place (I did not apply outside top10)

Also, do keep in mind that GRE = 170 will not guarantee you a top 20 place, and your offer might not be there again next year, so you are taking some risks by not going (although maybe smaller than the risk of going to that programme and failing the market in 5 years)

[Econhead]

I admit that I only skimmed the posts above, but I am going to try to refrain from beating a dead horse.

 

1) Don't accept the admit and then apply next year. It's terrible on more levels than anyone wants to describe, and you'll piss everyone off unless you're a severely under-placed. (You're not.)

 

2) Why did you apply to these programs? Because you wanted to, or you were told that you would have a good chance by your advisors (assuming they have a good record of placement)? If you chose this on your own, then Chateau may be right on point: you may be quite fortunate enough to have received this offer, in which case you should certainly take it.

 

3) Like #2, talk to your advisors. If they think these results were unreasonable, perhaps you should apply next year. -But that only gives you 1 semester (the fall) to improve, given that we'll be to the summer in no time.

 

4) (Most Important) Just because placement is better by better ranked schools doesn't imply that you can't be successful and find an academic placement at a t30. Being one of the top students at a rank 30 may very well net you a better placement than the median at a top 20. Unless you and everyone you know believes you are severely under-placed, take the offer, be happy, do well, and be a star.

 

5) Figure out if you really don't want to go to your admit, or whether it just feels crummy compared to the other schools that you applied to. Given it's rank, it should be the latter, but you'll decide for yourself.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Econhead
#5 was backwards.

[rejectioncity]

An update:

 

1. When I first applied to this school, I did so thinking I would be okay with attending the school. I have family in the area and the program is very solid. But things change. Somewhere along the way I had a change of heart. I started contemplating the idea of spending five more years in school as an impoverished student unable to properly provide for my wife and child. I concluded: I need the ends to justify the means and I am not sure that my potential for success graduating from this program relative to a top-tier school warrants the sacrifice.

 

2. I did not study for the GRE because I was mid-semester taking 20 hours and completing a mathematics research project and an economics research project. Keep in mind I also had a very young baby girl at the time and that I work as much as possible to support my family. I have more free time now (I am still taking a 20-hour load) and I think I can study for the GRE and probably score 168-170.

 

3. For more information about me: I am a dual major. I am graduating this semester with honors degrees in pure mathematics and economics with two business minors. I am a non-traditional student (which reminds me...are adcoms biased against older students?). I was an award-winning military journalist before attending college and I am a combat veteran. My GPA for math/econ is 3.97/4.0 respectively and about half of my math classes are honors courses, including one of my advanced courses. I have taken every non-graduate statistics course offered by both the business and mathematics schools at my college.

 

4. There is an alumnus of my honors college working at one of the top-tier universities who advised me on my profile. I also worked with a math professor and my economics research advisor. Together we tailored a list of schools. I choose schools that matched my research interests and that had an environment into which I thought I could blend well. I did not apply to all Top20 schools. I only applied to those schools that I thought matched me well.

My thoughts for improvement:

 

- Improving the GRE is the most obvious to me. I do think schools receiving 800+ applications for 20-30 slots use the GRE as an easily quantifiable metric with which they can make relative comparisons. I do not think this is the only criteria but I think they are likely to give a 170/170 a more thorough treatment than a 163/168. If they do not do this and I am wrong then I stand corrected. I am obviously ignorant of the process (hence turning to a community of aspiring/established economists for a bit of advice).

 

- I am moving on to graduate-level mathematics - most likely I will take a prob/stats course and either an analysis or a topology course. (I am taking both undergrad courses now).

 

- I am considering applied economics, mathematics and statistics graduate (terminal masters) programs to improve my competitiveness. I would HAPPILY do these abroad. I would absolute love the opportunity to live in a new country, learn a new culture, gain exposure to a new language etc.

 

- I have passed actuarial exams. I am thinking about simply entering the job market. However, I am afraid doing this will 'seal the deal' for me and I will close book on PhD candidacy at any top school.

 

Why does this matter to me:

 

Because this is my dream. I have the highest admiration for academia. The idea of expanding the boundaries of human knowledge is incredibly noble. I love teaching (I have extensive tutoring experience both privately and for my college's statistics dpt.) and I love learning. I also want to continue my record of service. And a final important point - I want to achieve something. I want to do something most can't. To differentiate myself. And I want to do what I want to do. I want to be happy and fulfilled in every aspect of life. Earning admittance to a top program can help open the doors that will lead to that fulfillment. I do not want to live with a dream deferred. Alas, I might.

 

 

 

*Forgive typos. This is long and I am overdue for class! No type to edit!

[pylaios]

...

Because this is my dream. I have the highest admiration for academia. The idea of expanding the boundaries of human knowledge is incredibly noble. I love teaching (I have extensive tutoring experience both privately and for my college's statistics dpt.) and I love learning. I also want to continue my record of service. And a final important point - I want to achieve something. I want to do something most can't. To differentiate myself. And I want to do what I want to do. I want to be happy and fulfilled in every aspect of life. Earning admittance to a top program can help open the doors that will lead to that fulfillment. I do not want to live with a dream deferred. Alas, I might.

 

In my opinion, if you take this attitude just about anywhere you can succeed. If what you say about yourself is true, you are obviously a capable and talented individual. If you think that the door on a potential career in academia is closing if you wait a year, then take the place at the top-35 school and go for it.

 

Yes, a top-10/top-20 school will open more doors, but a top-35 won't close any. And if you put yourself into it and really give it all you've got, which sounds like a lot, you can open a ton of those doors yourself. So if you think that this your chance and it won't be there if you wait another year—grab it now and don't look back.

 

If you think, on the other hand, that you can take a year and build your resume and your portfolio in a way that puts you into a school that better fits all of your needs, then do what it takes to get there. There are ways to improve your background, to build experience and to get better LORs. If you think you are capable of doing it and your current advisors think it makes sense, go for it. People have done it before you, and people will do it after you.

 

If you want my opinion, you sound like you want to do a PhD in economics. You have an opportunity to do so this year at a school that will allow you to pursue your dreams, if you take the initiative. If I were you, I'd go to the top-35 program this year and be damn happy about it. Of course earning admittance to a top program would be amazing and help open doors you never had available to you before—I'd love to have the opportunity to go to a top program. I can't—I have neither the background nor the training to do so. While I won't be able to have the opportunities I would if I went to one of those top programs, I can still go to a great school, study what I love and do what ever I can to contribute to research and gain skills in teaching. With that, I am completely confident in my ability to make a career for myself doing what I love. I think if you really want, you can too. Don't stress the rankings, just do what you love and the rest will take care of itself.

Edited February 24, 2015 by pylaios
Typo

[ZYX]

Assuming that the offer from this school is funded and the funding is of a decent standard, I would accept this offer. You say that you don't want to be an impoverished student for 5 years, but you also say that you are happy to study abroad, however you may have to pay tuition and living costs abroad for a year, compared to getting funding from this school. Do you see how this financially doesn't make sense?

 

(This isn't a dig at all)