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JB1

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Any thoughts, suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

 

Wondering what would be considered a reach/target/safety (if there's such a thing) for Econ PhD? Top 20? Top 50? 100? Am I cut out at all? Looking to see where I relatively hold up. I'm interested in Economics of US Immigration, labor, Wages, Skills, etc. so I'll be focusing on Labor Econ programs. I graduated from UMass Amherst 3 years ago and have been working in Analyst positions since. Due to various circumstances outside my control, grad school was not an option earlier, but finally is now. More details about my profile:

 

Undergrad GPA: 3.89

Major: Math major (Stat focus), Econ minor. I took Calc 1/2/3 & Advanced Calc; Into to Linear & Upper level advanced Linear Algebra; Stat 1/2; Differential Equations; Nonlinear Dynamics; Discrete Math & Graph Theory; Intermediate Micro & Macro, and Money/Banking.

GREs: Not taken yet! Although practice tests, including the 2 ETS tests have been 164-166 Q, 153-155V. Still studying for Quant, and hoping to get 168+ on the actual. Also, English isn't my first language (actually my 3rd) if that helps in overlooking the Verbal/Writing scores.

 

Letters: Professors from: 1) Math class I wrote a 15 page final/presented on the financial crisis using theories learned in class. 2) Honors seminar class in which I wrote a thesis on US immigration. 3) Phd Candidate who lectured upper level Econ class. I didn't get to know Professor well as it was a large class, but I got to know the lecturer well, and had numerous conversations with outside of class/wrote a number of essays for. I know this is a no-no, but perhaps I can get them to co-sign? Aside from this I don't have much from other Econ classes.


 

I'm really interested in researching economic impacts of US immigration and have some interesting research topics that would be very relevant today. However, my likely good but not fantastic letters of recommendation and lack of research experience definitely concern me. As I mentioned I've been away from school for 3 years and I've applied to research positions before to bulk up my experience and possibly get a stronger rec, but have not had much luck. My work experience so far has been analyst jobs but unrelated to Econ or have any research involved (one corporate, one startup). I also did a market research internship for a hospital for a summer.

I'm looking to apply for Fall 2018, so I suppose there's still a bit of time left.

 

Thoughts? Chances? Please be realistic. Thank you!

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This is not a bad/flawed profile, but I would say top 40-50 is where it becomes a reach, assuming you're applying in fall 2018.

 

I don't have particular criticism; you seem to know what you're doing. It is however a little more difficult to get into PhD econ than most people in your position might realize. Checking the profiles and results threads from previous years is the only way to gauge the current level of competition.

 

As a general principle, it's nearly impossible to move upward from U.S. undergrad ranking to U.S. PhD econ ranking solely on the basis of undergraduate performance.

 

Your math major + very high GPA at a public university may put you in position to do just that, but your letters and research experience don't stand out, to put it generously. You can try to spend a year or two to improve the latter two aspects before you apply, or you can settle for the chances of getting a lower-ranked funded PhD offer, or you can take a master's somewhere. Search around for previous threads on this forum if you want more information on each route.

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Thanks! Top 40 would be fantastic, considering. Even 75-100, I'd be happy with. From what I see on here and various other sites, it's so random even if you have a "perfect" application.

 

I'm also slightly concerned about coursework. My Econ minor includes intermediate coursework plus 1 upper level course. Grades were all great, but I'm worried about the lack of rigor/upper level courses. One of the schools I'm strongly considering, which is also quite a reach as it is, requires intermediate micro & macro, plus 2 upper levels. However, many other schools just require intermediate coursework. Any thoughts on taking a summer course, potentially online, for that one more upper? Would it be discounted?

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Agreed with chateau.

 

You already know this, but I'd emphasize that a letter from a PhD student, even if they know you well, will be discounted extremely heavily. A top 40 department will not view a UMass PhD student as capable of judging which students are top 40-caliber. I would also be wary of asking for a letter from someone who has never read a letter of rec before.

 

Thanks! Top 40 would be fantastic, considering. Even 75-100, I'd be happy with. From what I see on here and various other sites, it's so random even if you have a "perfect" application.

I think 75-100 won't be an issue. There is a big gap in competitiveness between such places and top 50. The downside is that there is also a gap in training and placement.

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Seems you are international student with undergraduate degree from UMass.

 

I second chateauheart with a lower range, given that you're interested in labor, you should look at schools lower than top 50. Competitiveness rose very sharp this year and I assume it will be higher in the next. It's nearly impossible nowadays to jump from undergrad directly to PhD especially if you come from other major. If you're interested in Financial Economics/Econometrics, your background and experience in math/stat could give you higher rank schools probably top 30 (from my experience).

 

Conventional way for US school graduates to improve profile is applying for an RA position for 2+ years. Your background will help you a lot on work. You will also get good LORs from your supervisors to signal adcoms about your research ability especially if they are big names. That case should give you a reach to top 20 while another is probably top 30. Another venue is to go for master's degree before moving on. Not many school in US have good master's with financial support. Some worth mention are Tuft and Duke. In other countries look for Canada, Europe and UK. The advantage is you have good LOR writers along with higher-level coursework. If you perform well, your expectation could be higher than RAing. Either way, you will need to spend a couple more years before you can start.

 

Some caution about LORs, don't ask anyone other than your professors to write it for you. Generally, professors are the best to write about your research capabilities, not PhD candidate or your employer.

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I would also recommend against submitting the LOR from the math professor. I've read many LORs from mathematicians. They do an excellent job communicating a student's mathematical competence, but are ill-equipped to convey to economists other important qualities, such as the student's ability to do economic research. Although their is some overlap, doing good mathematical research requires a different set of skills from doing good economic research. Because most mathematicians do not know what skills to talk about, they are poorly equipped to explain to your admission committee members why you might be an excellent researcher, and thus a good admit.

 

To get into a good school you want every LOR to build a case that you are going to be an amazing economic researcher and colleague. You need economic professors to do this. Only they know the jargon and signals necessary to convey this information.

 

Regardless, your profile is not bad. I have seen candidates with worse profiles get into places like OSU or MSU.

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One of the schools I'm strongly considering, which is also quite a reach as it is, requires intermediate micro & macro, plus 2 upper levels. However, many other schools just require intermediate coursework. Any thoughts on taking a summer course, potentially online, for that one more upper? Would it be discounted?

 

Thanks all. Any thoughts on this?

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Generally, if that's the only two economics courses you've taken, I suggest you enroll in master's degree first. Only two undergrad courses won't be enough. If it's master's/PhD level core courses, however, it will.

 

If you could tell us the school you're considering, we might be able to help you figure it out.

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Looking from UMass website, the first three are classified as Gen.Ed. which I bet do not count. That means you have Intermediate Micro/Macro and one elective. Personally I think these should be enough. Most adcoms focus primarily on core courses rather than elective courses, especially math-intensive courses. You have solid background in mathematics which more than compensate that so I'm pretty sure you're qualified to apply.

 

I need to mention, however, that UC Davis is generally close to top 30 which makes competition super high. You sure can apply but given you have neither research experience nor graduate coursework while others do will put you at disadvantage. So I must re-affirm my original advice that you either choose lower-ranked school or follow one of two ways to improve your profile before applying.

 

For Zubrus's advice, I will think the same if it were last year. But given this year competitiveness, I can no longer think that way.

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  • 3 months later...
Thank you all for your thoughts/suggestions. I took the GRE, and got 167Q /154V and 4.5AW. Is the low Verbal a concern enough to retake? I think on a good day I can get it to 156-158, and get quant higher too. I know quant is most important, but I don't want my application tossed because of the low verbal. My aim is still 25-50, and I might apply to a few top 20 as well.
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Hi OP. I just started at a school very similar in rank to UC davis (us news). I disagree with the above posts that you need an RA to hit T30 if you have a good math background. Your's is solid (would say really solid except for the lack of an analysis course). I've got several classmates with profile similar to yours (and a couple of people with profiles strictly weaker than yours). So I think you should apply to T20-T50 for sure, and if you have time, throw in a couple of T10-T20 as well. I also disagree that its very hard to move up in ranking from undergrad to grad programs. That may be the case if you're looking to move upto T15-T10 perhaps, but certainly not at T30s. Again, I have class mates who bumped up more than 20 places in ranking. Best of luck to you.
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with a math major its unlikely it will get thrown out. If you have the energy and time to retake it I would aim for a 170 in math though. verbal scores won't matter until its really low (read less than 150).
Thank you all for your thoughts/suggestions. I took the GRE, and got 167Q /154V and 4.5AW. Is the low Verbal a concern enough to retake? I think on a good day I can get it to 156-158, and get quant higher too. I know quant is most important, but I don't want my application tossed because of the low verbal. My aim is still 25-50, and I might apply to a few top 20 as well.
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with a math major its unlikely it will get thrown out. If you have the energy and time to retake it I would aim for a 170 in math though. verbal scores won't matter until its really low (read less than 150).

While its anecdotal, I have a friend who scored 158 in Q and got into PSU (was a physics major from US LAC). This was 2 years ago.

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Another thing to add that is anecdotal: One of my HS friends went to Umass Amherst and had a perfect GPA as an econ major, got a perfect GRE Q score and was only able to get into two top 40 programs. I think it's difficult to get into a really great program from Umass due to its low ranking. Edited by kingofloss6
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