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regarding RA position after undergrad


underg2121

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Hello,

 

As one of my options after I graduate from my university, I was thinking about working as an RA for about a year under a professor or two professors. They are certainly very well known in the field and I personally know them, and they told me that they are willing to work with me upon me graduating, although I would not be paid. I will certainly apply to other RA positions (nber, etc.), but if I were to work with the former two, will it not be as impactful as I would be with working in the jobs posted in nber, siepr, etc.? That is, as long as I gain research experience along with great letters from them, would it matter at the end, right? (Assuming money is not an issue) (Sorry, this question may seem a bit weird and trivial but I just wanted to make sure:) ).

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It seems the important thing is that whoever writers your letters (1) has sent RA's to good programs before, and can compare you directly to those students (hopefully favorably), (2) gets a good signal of your quality, and (3) is themselves decently well published, so it's clear they know what they're talking about. Beyond this, whether the name ends in Chetty is probably somewhat helpful but not that huge. This seems to be the opinion I've gathered on this forum.

 

For example, see my earlier thread here (http://www.www.urch.com/forums/phd-economics/159681-how-letter-writers-contacting-adcoms-etc.html ). Check out also the thread I cite there, where some of the faculty who are active on urch share their candid thoughts on how the admissions process works and what matters. In particular, a comment from user tbe on my thread:

 

"When we review applications, letters from people who have a history of placing students in graduate school carry more weight. Whether we have a personal connection is less important, though I do have a better sense of the judgment (for better or worse) of people who I know well. At best, personal connections may help get your application noticed, but it is unlikely to have much of an effect on admissions. I wouldn't worry about it."

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I would tend to agree with what jjrousseau said but not on everything though.

 

It is indeed important to ask them what are their placement records. Since you said they're very well-known, I am assuming they're not junior professors, so they should have placed RAs previously.

 

However, I'm not sure I'd agree with what has been said on the Chetty example, at least as it is. I mean precisely, Raj Chetty satisfied the 3 criteria jjrousseau mentioned, so it's a bit contradictory to cite him as an example...? But I guess his point was that the name per se (i.e., how famous your professor is) would not necessarily be helpful, although –again– R. Chetty is a quite bad example given that it turns out he places very well his RAs... So, things are quite strongly correlated, but not always!

 

As for the quote from a professor who posted, I would also take this with caution. While it is certainly true to some extent, it's only one data point, so one cannot infer that all admission committee members judge application files like him/her. I mean I have seen some quite smart people get worse admission results than people who are (seemingly) less smart but who work for big guys... So, I believe that your professors' network/name does matter to some extent. Perhaps, for rather junior professors, having them use their network will "simply make your application noticed" but if, say, the (co-)editor at a top 5 journal asks for "a favor" to one of his friends/colleagues, I think things are quite different...

 

All in all, I would say that in your case, unless the professors who want to exploit you (let's call a spade a spade) placed their previous RAs very well, you should rather think about getting a (paid) RA position at a top school (e.g., via the NBER website), even if it's for a rather junior professor who doesn't have many publications (if s/he has already placed well despite the fact that s/he junior, it's a good signal). I think that in that case, the signal from that professor's school is stronger (people usually understand that they're juniors and it takes a couple of years at least to publish in a top 5). So, take your current option as a back-up plan maybe?

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I agree with everything else that has been said, and I want to add that their unwillingness to pay you strikes me as a red flag. Even if money is not an issue for you, the fact that they have said they won't pay you indicates to me that they either don't value your work or don't respect you enough to make your time/effort worthwhile. That doesn't bode very well for any letters they might be writing you.
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I'd take a paid position at the NBER or SIEPR over an unpaid position elsewhere. I guess if you think these professors are likely to write you much stronger letters and have good placement records, it could be worth it, but otherwise I'd be very wary of working unpaid. Like, it's probably better to do a great job for these professors who won't pay you than to be the worst RA at the NBER, but otherwise I think you should seek out a paid position with someone who has a strong placement record, even if they're not as high-profile. I think also that the network that you develop at the NBER/SIEPR can be a really nice perk. I haven't done one of those positions myself so I'm not sure I can speak to the exact benefits, but it always helps to start building your network (possible future coauthors/classmates/friends!) as early as possible.

 

Also it doesn't seem like jjrousseau is saying don't work for Chetty or that Chetty doesn't satisfy the conditions--more that the value added by his fame isn't as great as the fact that he probably writes his RAs strong letters when they do good work.

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I'd take a paid position at the NBER or SIEPR over an unpaid position elsewhere. I guess if you think these professors are likely to write you much stronger letters and have good placement records, it could be worth it, but otherwise I'd be very wary of working unpaid. Like, it's probably better to do a great job for these professors who won't pay you than to be the worst RA at the NBER, but otherwise I think you should seek out a paid position with someone who has a strong placement record, even if they're not as high-profile. I think also that the network that you develop at the NBER/SIEPR can be a really nice perk. I haven't done one of those positions myself so I'm not sure I can speak to the exact benefits, but it always helps to start building your network (possible future coauthors/classmates/friends!) as early as possible.

 

Also it doesn't seem like jjrousseau is saying don't work for Chetty or that Chetty doesn't satisfy the conditions--more that the value added by his fame isn't as great as the fact that he probably writes his RAs strong letters when they do good work.

 

I know jjrousseau wasn't saying that. It's just that everything is so highly correlated with Chetty that ad com people who see his name certainly already have a positive bias even before reading his letter (assuming they bother reading his letter...).

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I would tend to agree with what jjrousseau said but not on everything though.

 

It is indeed important to ask them what are their placement records. Since you said they're very well-known, I am assuming they're not junior professors, so they should have placed RAs previously.

 

However, I'm not sure I'd agree with what has been said on the Chetty example, at least as it is. I mean precisely, Raj Chetty satisfied the 3 criteria jjrousseau mentioned, so it's a bit contradictory to cite him as an example...? But I guess his point was that the name per se (i.e., how famous your professor is) would not necessarily be helpful, although –again– R. Chetty is a quite bad example given that it turns out he places very well his RAs... So, things are quite strongly correlated, but not always!

 

As for the quote from a professor who posted, I would also take this with caution. While it is certainly true to some extent, it's only one data point, so one cannot infer that all admission committee members judge application files like him/her. I mean I have seen some quite smart people get worse admission results than people who are (seemingly) less smart but who work for big guys... So, I believe that your professors' network/name does matter to some extent. Perhaps, for rather junior professors, having them use their network will "simply make your application noticed" but if, say, the (co-)editor at a top 5 journal asks for "a favor" to one of his friends/colleagues, I think things are quite different...

 

All in all, I would say that in your case, unless the professors who want to exploit you (let's call a spade a spade) placed their previous RAs very well, you should rather think about getting a (paid) RA position at a top school (e.g., via the NBER website), even if it's for a rather junior professor who doesn't have many publications (if s/he has already placed well despite the fact that s/he junior, it's a good signal). I think that in that case, the signal from that professor's school is stronger (people usually understand that they're juniors and it takes a couple of years at least to publish in a top 5). So, take your current option as a back-up plan maybe?

 

Hi, thanks for your input!

Actually, I've known him before and contacted him individually if I can "learn" under him through assisting with research, etc., and he said yes to me. We actually didn't discuss about whether I'll be paid or not, but I just assumed that I won't be since I did not necessarily go through the formal application process. Do you still think I should set this as backup?

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I would tend to agree with what jjrousseau said but not on everything though.

 

It is indeed important to ask them what are their placement records. Since you said they're very well-known, I am assuming they're not junior professors, so they should have placed RAs previously.

 

However, I'm not sure I'd agree with what has been said on the Chetty example, at least as it is. I mean precisely, Raj Chetty satisfied the 3 criteria jjrousseau mentioned, so it's a bit contradictory to cite him as an example...? But I guess his point was that the name per se (i.e., how famous your professor is) would not necessarily be helpful, although –again– R. Chetty is a quite bad example given that it turns out he places very well his RAs... So, things are quite strongly correlated, but not always!

 

As for the quote from a professor who posted, I would also take this with caution. While it is certainly true to some extent, it's only one data point, so one cannot infer that all admission committee members judge application files like him/her. I mean I have seen some quite smart people get worse admission results than people who are (seemingly) less smart but who work for big guys... So, I believe that your professors' network/name does matter to some extent. Perhaps, for rather junior professors, having them use their network will "simply make your application noticed" but if, say, the (co-)editor at a top 5 journal asks for "a favor" to one of his friends/colleagues, I think things are quite different...

 

All in all, I would say that in your case, unless the professors who want to exploit you (let's call a spade a spade) placed their previous RAs very well, you should rather think about getting a (paid) RA position at a top school (e.g., via the NBER website), even if it's for a rather junior professor who doesn't have many publications (if s/he has already placed well despite the fact that s/he junior, it's a good signal). I think that in that case, the signal from that professor's school is stronger (people usually understand that they're juniors and it takes a couple of years at least to publish in a top 5). So, take your current option as a back-up plan maybe?

 

Thanks for your reply!

Actually, I've known him before and contacted him individually if I can "learn" under him through assisting with research, etc., and he said yes to me. We actually didn't discuss about whether I'll be paid or not, but I just assumed that I won't be since I did not necessarily go through the formal application process. Do you still think I should set this as backup?

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I agree with everything else that has been said, and I want to add that their unwillingness to pay you strikes me as a red flag. Even if money is not an issue for you, the fact that they have said they won't pay you indicates to me that they either don't value your work or don't respect you enough to make your time/effort worthwhile. That doesn't bode very well for any letters they might be writing you.

 

Thanks for your reply!

Actually, I've known him before and contacted him individually if I can "learn" under him through assisting with research, etc., and he said yes to me. We actually didn't discuss about whether I'll be paid or not, but I just assumed that I won't be since I did not necessarily go through the formal application process. Do you still think I should set this as backup? (I've asked the same question to those who posted before you did just to hear more.)

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I'd take a paid position at the NBER or SIEPR over an unpaid position elsewhere. I guess if you think these professors are likely to write you much stronger letters and have good placement records, it could be worth it, but otherwise I'd be very wary of working unpaid. Like, it's probably better to do a great job for these professors who won't pay you than to be the worst RA at the NBER, but otherwise I think you should seek out a paid position with someone who has a strong placement record, even if they're not as high-profile. I think also that the network that you develop at the NBER/SIEPR can be a really nice perk. I haven't done one of those positions myself so I'm not sure I can speak to the exact benefits, but it always helps to start building your network (possible future coauthors/classmates/friends!) as early as possible.

 

Also it doesn't seem like jjrousseau is saying don't work for Chetty or that Chetty doesn't satisfy the conditions--more that the value added by his fame isn't as great as the fact that he probably writes his RAs strong letters when they do good work.

 

Thanks for your reply!

Actually, I've known him before and contacted him individually if I can "learn" under him through assisting with research, etc., and he said yes to me. We actually didn't discuss about whether I'll be paid or not, but I just assumed that I won't be since I did not necessarily go through the formal application process. Do you still think I should set this as backup? (I've asked the same question to those who posted before you did just to hear more.)

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Given that you are a junior, my recommendation would be to -- if it is at all possible -- leverage your connection with these two researchers you mention into an RA position this summer. Then you can try to get a paid position at NBER, SIEPR, etc. following your graduation using your connections as a spring board, with the full time unpaid job with these researchers as something to fall back on.
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Given that you are a junior, my recommendation would be to -- if it is at all possible -- leverage your connection with these two researchers you mention into an RA position this summer. Then you can try to get a paid position at NBER, SIEPR, etc. following your graduation using your connections as a spring board, with the full time unpaid job with these researchers as something to fall back on.

 

I second this, as well as the previous mentions that you would probably prefer paid to unpaid in general.

 

Also, I don't think an NBER/SIEPR/etc letter writer adds *no* value, just that some seniors on this forum with inside info have basically said it's not a huge difference against another good prof who has sent RA's to strong programs in the past. Not to mention, NBER/etc positions also come with a host of other benefits: working with new profs and learning from them; taking classes (depending on the particular institution's rules, though to my knowledge all NBER people are amenable to this); meeting a group of others in the same position as you who (1) could be future co-authors and (2) in my experience have been generally cool people.

 

Curious about the point made about whether being unpaid signals anything you should be wary of, perhaps that the profs don't value your time and/or that they may not be personally invested in you and your grad school outcomes. I'm really not sure what to think here; you'll probably need to be the judge on whether it reflects something negative or if it's just a financial constraint for them, given that you have the inside info here.

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Curious about the point made about whether being unpaid signals anything you should be wary of, perhaps that the profs don't value your time and/or that they may not be personally invested in you and your grad school outcomes. I'm really not sure what to think here; you'll probably need to be the judge on whether it reflects something negative or if it's just a financial constraint for them, given that you have the inside info here.

 

I could be wrong on this. But the reason I think this is that at my undergrad (usually ranked 20-30 in econ) every prof I know of in the department offers to pay RAs, even associate profs hiring undergrads part-time. And this is at a school that isn't as prestigious or as well-funded as the top 10 schools, where the profs OP is talking to probably work, given that they're so influential. It's possible that the econ department at my undergrad has an anomalous culture, but it strikes me as odd that profs who probably have more funding than the ones here are less willing to pay for work.

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My pithy/glib response:

 

but if I were to work with the former two, will it not be as impactful as I would be with working in the jobs posted in nber, siepr, etc.?

It will not be.

That is, as long as I gain research experience along with great letters from them, would it matter at the end, right?

If they are unwilling to pay for your work, you are unlikely to work on a project of note to either other researchers or these senior faculty themselves.

 

More detailed response: Kazooie is on the mark here. If you can get some unpaid work that is focused on a specific task over the summer, that's decent preliminary work experience. If you want to apply for a full-time RA, you will be competing with students from top undergrad schools who have done the same (and whose schools are wealthy enough to grant faculty money to pay for these specific tasks).

 

Just because certain faculty are well-known doesn't mean they are active publishing still, or that they have an idea how the admissions game is done these days. One valuable fact I learned from Testmagic is that faculty will rarely straight up refuse an offer to help out an undergrad, though there are no guarantees they will help you in an impactful way.

 

I assume you have already done this, but is there any idea you can get these faculty at your school to talk about their recent research projects? Instead of committing to a vague idea of collaboration with you, it's much better if you can express interest in one project and see if said faculty wants you to help out during the entire process.

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My pithy/glib response:

 

More detailed response: Kazooie is on the mark here. If you can get some unpaid work that is focused on a specific task over the summer, that's decent preliminary work experience. If you want to apply for a full-time RA, you will be competing with students from top undergrad schools who have done the same (and whose schools are wealthy enough to grant faculty money to pay for these specific tasks).

 

To expand on this, when talking with the professor for whom I currently work they said that my reference from my summer internship was really good, and I inferred from that my summer experience was crucial in ultimately getting offered the RA position. I've helped with screening candidates for the next crop of RAs in my position, and a necessary condition to getting the job is demonstrated research experience. A summer position with well-known academic economists more than fulfills that criterion. If you are aiming for an NBER/SIEPR/etc RA job after graduation, then developing a good relationship this summer with some economists would be really helpful in achieving that.

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