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asquare · 05-26-2006, 04:51 AM

I mentioned this on a thread in the graduate admissions section, but I am a little concerned that the advice to get a MA before pursuing an econ PhD is being given too generically here. Reading these boards, one could get the impression that the "normal" path to an econ PhD is to finish undergrad, enroll in a terminal MA program, and THEN apply to PhD programs. That is not the case. Most (domestic -- American) students in PhD programs do NOT have masters before they begin.

Of the 21 in my first year class at Michigan, I believe that only two (1 domestic) had MAs in economics. Three or four others have other masters degrees not in economics. Friends in other programs have observed that it is more common for international students to hold MAs before beginning their PhDs.

An MA in economics can be very, very valuable for some applicants. It helps those who have insufficient math preparation, who did not take many economics classes as undergraduates, who have degrees from unknown universities, or who want to study for PhD in a different country than where they received their undergraduate degree. The MA can also help someone who is unsure of whether or not to pursue a PhD decide whether or not graduate study is right for him. The MA is not necessary even for every person who falls into one of those categories, and successful completion of the MA is not a guarantee of admission to a PhD program.

But there are down sides, too. An MA is costly in terms of time and money. Funding is not typically available to masters students, so "getting an MA" means PAYING for an MA in many cases. And it takes two years of your life.

Also, not all masters programs are great experiences. I think it's particularly important to be clear about your goals and reasons for attending, and make sure that those are good matches for the programs you consider. If you want to take PhD classes, work as an RA, or study a specific topic -- ask if it is possible before applying or at least before enrolling! Look very closely at the program's record at getting students into PhD programs, and do not overestimate your chance at being the best student in your MA class.

For someone who is committed to getting a PhD, applying to one or two terminal MA programs as safeties is a good idea and at $80/application, probably a worthwhile investment (saves having to wait a year). But it works the other way, too -- don't assume that you will NOT get into a PhD program, and that you HAVE to do an MA first. If you have your heart set on a PhD, apply to PhD programs as well. And think carefully about whether you would rather go to a lower ranked PhD program now or have a chance at a higher one after an MA. (There is no right or wrong answer to that trade-off, it's person and depends on discount factor, career goals, etc.) Also, remember that most every person who is admitted to a PhD without funding gets it by second or third year. Going to a PhD without funding probably will not involve more out of pocket expenses in the long run than doing an MA followed by a fully funded PhD.

I'm really not criticizing anyone who's recommended that another poster get a masters -- and heck, I've given the same advice. A lot of the time, it's the right advice! But looking through a lot of posts, it seems that advice is being given almost all of the time. I just wanted to offer another perspective or a reminder that it isn't the answer for everyone, all the time. And of course, other opinions are welcome

tad · 05-26-2006, 05:36 AM

An MA in econ is essentially useless if you have a BA in Econ. For any other reasons that you want to get an MA in econ, there're better alternatives.

Freethinker · 05-26-2006, 05:52 AM

Asquare, excellent and reasonable post! I had been thinking along the same lines.

Indeed, I fit in several of the "MA required" categories but took the risk and applied to PhDs, successfully (and to MA too). So, for future applicants I'll give this cliche

: evaluate your own situation carefully and diversify your bets, a.k.a. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

rollingstone · 05-26-2006, 06:22 AM

what do you guys think about the chance of getting a decent jobs after finishing a MA in Economics? even in top tier uni?

notacolour · 05-26-2006, 04:24 PM

I definitely agree. This is why, whenever I offer "go for an MA" as a possible suggestion, my response drags on and on with all the caveats and other possibilities...

That said, I think it's a good option for many of the people who come here with questions because many of them (myself included!) have major deficiencies that an MA can be used to address. People who post here aren't really a representative sample of applicants--we seem to oversample top students with no reason to worry and people with somewhat strange cases (switching fields, bombed this, that or the other for whatever reason, etc.).

But I would definitely stress the importance of knowing what you can gain from any degree, be it an MA or a PhD, and work hard to make it work for you! Take extra math, take PhD-level econ, work with professors, make sure you get excellent letters. Even with all that, it's certainly not the best option for most people, but it was the best option for me, and it's a great option for certain types of people.

OneMoreEcon · 05-26-2006, 04:29 PM

I absolutely agree with asquare. But I think part of the reason for the "Get an MA?" popping up all over the board at the moment is that a new crop of future applicants is beginning to post here. And a lot of those posts are people asking if they should get an MA... I don't know if there's a lot more suggestions that people do go and get an MA.

Perhaps we can do a "Read This First --- For New Members" and get a moderator to sticky it to the top of the thread listing and include info about MA programs... I also remember reactor doing a really good post with warnings about selecting an MA program.

PCG · 05-26-2006, 04:35 PM

Asquare...

To be honest, I never got the impression that MA in econ was highly recommended on this board. Actually, I had the contrary impression.

The problem, IMO, is that a lot of people seem to have unrealistic expectations. How often do people post things like, "how do I get into a top 15 econ phd with my 3.2 gpa and two econ classes, and oh by the way, I'm graduating next month?" or "I was an econ major but I'm no good at math and only took two calculus classes how do I get into a phd program?" The truth is, there aren't really any good options here -- and I think people give the right advice for the most part.

Rollingstone...

I have been working in consulting for a few years, and have seen that the MA Econ is not highly valued in industry. For a few scenarios, it makes sense, but usually I don't think it is worthwhile. Situations where it makes sense:

1. Theoretically, there is a small subset of jobs, such as certain consulting firms, think tanks, of government jobs where this degree would be advantageous. I suspect these jobs are out there, but don't ask me to direct you to them, because I can't. But if you already are familiar with them and are certain you are interested in them, then the MA is advisable.

2a. You went to an unknown US college and/or didn't do so well, this gives you the opportunity to go to a more reputable place and try and improve your grades to show your ability (of course, this entails risk). This would help get you closer (not on par, mind you) with students who have BA/BS from good colleges with good grades.

2b. You come from another country and want to work in the US. This might be a way to gain a foothold in the US and give you a name on your resume that is recognizable to US employers. (This is a special case, really, of 2a. Also entails a lot of risk).

In pretty much every other situation, the MA doesn't give you any advantage over having just a bachelor's, and in fact might reduce your available options. And in pretty much every case, an MBA is much more highly valued in industry (that is, the MA econ is not a substitute for an MBA).

notacolour · 05-26-2006, 06:28 PM

I would again say the same thing I've said in many other threads: there are a few MA programs that can improve one's job prospects, but they are few and far between. An MA program that heavily emphasizes applied skills and graduates people who know how to use Stata, SAS, and other software to analyze huge data sets can do an excellent job of getting those graduates jobs. Most US MA programs don't bother to do any of that, because they're afterthoughts, serving as little more than money-raisers for their departments. If you really want a useful econ MA degree, you'll have to look a bit harder.

I agree with PCG. I don't feel like people here recommend MAs indiscriminately, but we do tend to recommend them to the many people who come in saying, "I have a 3.0 GPA at a minor state school, and I got B's and C's in the three business math courses I took; what do I need to do to get into Harvard econ?"

Econ2006 · 05-26-2006, 10:06 PM

I agree with what most are saying here. There seem to be quite a few cases on the board in which individuals have a very weak background in math. and econ. (either few courses or poor grades), and are seeking advice on how to get into a reasonably good econ. Ph.D. program. In these cases, where a radical improvement is needed, the econ. MA (preferably non-U.S.) seems like the most logical path.

However, I agree that borderline students should apply directly to Ph.D. programs, or else simply take a few courses at a university, or get some research experience. Certainly, an MA should not be seen as a prerequisite for Ph.D. admissions.

asquare · 05-26-2006, 10:35 PM

It seems like we are all on the same page

I especially like the way PCG laid out the cases where an MA is helpful. And I think there's a lot to what Econ2006 points out -- there may be an overrepresentation of cases where an MA is appropriate on the boards.

Anyways, thanks for adding your thoughts. Hopefully people applying this fall will find the discussion useful.

05-26-2006, 04:51 AM	#1 (permalink)
asquare TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ann Arbor Posts: 1,381	"Get an MA" --> not one-size-fits-all advice I mentioned this on a thread in the graduate admissions section, but I am a little concerned that the advice to get a MA before pursuing an econ PhD is being given too generically here. Reading these boards, one could get the impression that the "normal" path to an econ PhD is to finish undergrad, enroll in a terminal MA program, and THEN apply to PhD programs. That is not the case. Most (domestic -- American) students in PhD programs do NOT have masters before they begin. Of the 21 in my first year class at Michigan, I believe that only two (1 domestic) had MAs in economics. Three or four others have other masters degrees not in economics. Friends in other programs have observed that it is more common for international students to hold MAs before beginning their PhDs. An MA in economics can be very, very valuable for some applicants. It helps those who have insufficient math preparation, who did not take many economics classes as undergraduates, who have degrees from unknown universities, or who want to study for PhD in a different country than where they received their undergraduate degree. The MA can also help someone who is unsure of whether or not to pursue a PhD decide whether or not graduate study is right for him. The MA is not necessary even for every person who falls into one of those categories, and successful completion of the MA is not a guarantee of admission to a PhD program. But there are down sides, too. An MA is costly in terms of time and money. Funding is not typically available to masters students, so "getting an MA" means PAYING for an MA in many cases. And it takes two years of your life. Also, not all masters programs are great experiences. I think it's particularly important to be clear about your goals and reasons for attending, and make sure that those are good matches for the programs you consider. If you want to take PhD classes, work as an RA, or study a specific topic -- ask if it is possible before applying or at least before enrolling! Look very closely at the program's record at getting students into PhD programs, and do not overestimate your chance at being the best student in your MA class. For someone who is committed to getting a PhD, applying to one or two terminal MA programs as safeties is a good idea and at $80/application, probably a worthwhile investment (saves having to wait a year). But it works the other way, too -- don't assume that you will NOT get into a PhD program, and that you HAVE to do an MA first. If you have your heart set on a PhD, apply to PhD programs as well. And think carefully about whether you would rather go to a lower ranked PhD program now or have a chance at a higher one after an MA. (There is no right or wrong answer to that trade-off, it's person and depends on discount factor, career goals, etc.) Also, remember that most every person who is admitted to a PhD without funding gets it by second or third year. Going to a PhD without funding probably will not involve more out of pocket expenses in the long run than doing an MA followed by a fully funded PhD. I'm really not criticizing anyone who's recommended that another poster get a masters -- and heck, I've given the same advice. A lot of the time, it's the right advice! But looking through a lot of posts, it seems that advice is being given almost all of the time. I just wanted to offer another perspective or a reminder that it isn't the answer for everyone, all the time. And of course, other opinions are welcome Last edited by asquare : 05-26-2006 at 05:14 AM.

05-26-2006, 04:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
PCG Within my grasp! Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: UCLA Posts: 369	Asquare... To be honest, I never got the impression that MA in econ was highly recommended on this board. Actually, I had the contrary impression. The problem, IMO, is that a lot of people seem to have unrealistic expectations. How often do people post things like, "how do I get into a top 15 econ phd with my 3.2 gpa and two econ classes, and oh by the way, I'm graduating next month?" or "I was an econ major but I'm no good at math and only took two calculus classes how do I get into a phd program?" The truth is, there aren't really any good options here -- and I think people give the right advice for the most part. Rollingstone... I have been working in consulting for a few years, and have seen that the MA Econ is not highly valued in industry. For a few scenarios, it makes sense, but usually I don't think it is worthwhile. Situations where it makes sense: 1. Theoretically, there is a small subset of jobs, such as certain consulting firms, think tanks, of government jobs where this degree would be advantageous. I suspect these jobs are out there, but don't ask me to direct you to them, because I can't. But if you already are familiar with them and are certain you are interested in them, then the MA is advisable. 2a. You went to an unknown US college and/or didn't do so well, this gives you the opportunity to go to a more reputable place and try and improve your grades to show your ability (of course, this entails risk). This would help get you closer (not on par, mind you) with students who have BA/BS from good colleges with good grades. 2b. You come from another country and want to work in the US. This might be a way to gain a foothold in the US and give you a name on your resume that is recognizable to US employers. (This is a special case, really, of 2a. Also entails a lot of risk). In pretty much every other situation, the MA doesn't give you any advantage over having just a bachelor's, and in fact might reduce your available options. And in pretty much every case, an MBA is much more highly valued in industry (that is, the MA econ is not a substitute for an MBA). _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _

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05-26-2006, 05:36 AM	#2 (permalink)
tad Eager! Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 83	An MA in econ is essentially useless if you have a BA in Econ. For any other reasons that you want to get an MA in econ, there're better alternatives.

05-26-2006, 05:52 AM	#3 (permalink)
Freethinker Within my grasp! Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 269	Asquare, excellent and reasonable post! I had been thinking along the same lines. Indeed, I fit in several of the "MA required" categories but took the risk and applied to PhDs, successfully (and to MA too). So, for future applicants I'll give this cliche : evaluate your own situation carefully and diversify your bets, a.k.a. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

05-26-2006, 06:22 AM	#4 (permalink)
rollingstone Eager! Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 60	what do you guys think about the chance of getting a decent jobs after finishing a MA in Economics? even in top tier uni?

05-26-2006, 04:24 PM	#5 (permalink)
notacolour TestMagic Guru-in-Training Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 630	I definitely agree. This is why, whenever I offer "go for an MA" as a possible suggestion, my response drags on and on with all the caveats and other possibilities... That said, I think it's a good option for many of the people who come here with questions because many of them (myself included!) have major deficiencies that an MA can be used to address. People who post here aren't really a representative sample of applicants--we seem to oversample top students with no reason to worry and people with somewhat strange cases (switching fields, bombed this, that or the other for whatever reason, etc.). But I would definitely stress the importance of knowing what you can gain from any degree, be it an MA or a PhD, and work hard to make it work for you! Take extra math, take PhD-level econ, work with professors, make sure you get excellent letters. Even with all that, it's certainly not the best option for most people, but it was the best option for me, and it's a great option for certain types of people.

05-26-2006, 04:29 PM	#6 (permalink)
OneMoreEcon TestMagic Guru-in-Training Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 538	I absolutely agree with asquare. But I think part of the reason for the "Get an MA?" popping up all over the board at the moment is that a new crop of future applicants is beginning to post here. And a lot of those posts are people asking if they should get an MA... I don't know if there's a lot more suggestions that people do go and get an MA. Perhaps we can do a "Read This First --- For New Members" and get a moderator to sticky it to the top of the thread listing and include info about MA programs... I also remember reactor doing a really good post with warnings about selecting an MA program.

05-26-2006, 06:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
notacolour TestMagic Guru-in-Training Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 630	I would again say the same thing I've said in many other threads: there are a few MA programs that can improve one's job prospects, but they are few and far between. An MA program that heavily emphasizes applied skills and graduates people who know how to use Stata, SAS, and other software to analyze huge data sets can do an excellent job of getting those graduates jobs. Most US MA programs don't bother to do any of that, because they're afterthoughts, serving as little more than money-raisers for their departments. If you really want a useful econ MA degree, you'll have to look a bit harder. I agree with PCG. I don't feel like people here recommend MAs indiscriminately, but we do tend to recommend them to the many people who come in saying, "I have a 3.0 GPA at a minor state school, and I got B's and C's in the three business math courses I took; what do I need to do to get into Harvard econ?"

05-26-2006, 10:06 PM	#9 (permalink)
Econ2006 Within my grasp! Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 208	I agree with what most are saying here. There seem to be quite a few cases on the board in which individuals have a very weak background in math. and econ. (either few courses or poor grades), and are seeking advice on how to get into a reasonably good econ. Ph.D. program. In these cases, where a radical improvement is needed, the econ. MA (preferably non-U.S.) seems like the most logical path. However, I agree that borderline students should apply directly to Ph.D. programs, or else simply take a few courses at a university, or get some research experience. Certainly, an MA should not be seen as a prerequisite for Ph.D. admissions.

05-26-2006, 10:35 PM	#10 (permalink)
asquare TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ann Arbor Posts: 1,381	It seems like we are all on the same page I especially like the way PCG laid out the cases where an MA is helpful. And I think there's a lot to what Econ2006 points out -- there may be an overrepresentation of cases where an MA is appropriate on the boards. Anyways, thanks for adding your thoughts. Hopefully people applying this fall will find the discussion useful.

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