Special candidate: Econ Ph.D. at good school without much background?

[Karina 07]

Hi,

I am wondering if I will be able to get into a top economics Ph.D. program despite not having all *that* much economics background.

Instead, I have:
- 780 V, 800 Q, 800 A on the GRE (from 2002, before analytical changed over) (and 790 V, 800 Q on the SAT, not like it matters anymore);
- only 1 undergraduate econ class (micro), which I aced and then became the TA for;
- 2 year-long graduate econ classes, one of which covered micro, macro, and international econ, the other of which covered development economics;
- a couple of other economics research essays (without a course to go with them) for my master's course;
- a master's degree in international development from a really good school on a full, prestigious scholarship;
- undergraduate GPA of 3.8-something;
- undergraduate math courses up to the level I hear most places like (linear algebra and all that) -- but most taken pass/fail in terms with many more courses than normal;
- many pre-university math awards or doing well in competitions (e.g. invited to AIME from grade 9 on)....

... What do you think? Where should I apply, and do I stand a chance? I'd really love to get into a *good* program, having just come from a really awesome master's....

[Starvingecon]

Your GRE maybe be too old for some places or just on the cutoff so I would look into that. I'd like more info on your math background which courses you got grades for and what were they. Do you have any statistics or econometrics classes at all. Also how good was your undergrad university, I think that matters a lot when some parts of your application are unusual. Also letter of recommendation play a very imporant role, who are you thinkging about getting them from? Without a strong econ background a stron letter of recommendation from a respected economist would go a long way. letter of recommendation from non econ phd's might not help you much at all. Your raw stats however look pretty good.

[Karina 07]

Sorry for missing out on some of that info!


Math: got credit for the first term of calc, so skipped that; multivariable calc; vector-valued functions calc; linear algebra; differential equations. For the two courses that were graded, I got Bs. Also used this math a lot in my physics minor, so I got more practice with it than just in the math courses.

Statistics: 2 years (1 undergrad, 1 graduate), great marks here, As.

Undergrad university: an Ivy League (GPA corresponds to top 6% there). (Graduate university is great, too.)

LORs: I will have one very flattering one from an amazing prof (so, yes, an econ ph.d. but also very active in the development economics world...); one still flattering but less so one from a prof who's not quite as cool but still respected (they *might* know him -- I'm not sure); I'm not sure yet who'll write a third one, maybe this non-econ prof who I did research for on institutions, since at least the subject matter is econ-y. If I'm lucky, at the beginning of this year I might meet and get to know another econ prof through a research paper, but we'll see if that pans out....

[asquare]

Karina, your background is going to make you a little hard to place for some departments, but they do have some familiarity with students coming out of top policy schools. (Did you do the MPA-ID at KSG?)

Your GRE scores are great -- but, as Starvingecon notes, they are old. Schools tend to require scores within 5 years and many have an unstated preference for more recent scores. This is especially true since the GRE format has changed. You should look at retaking the test.

How good was your undergrad university? What was your undergrad major? You took one econ class and a bunch of P/F math, so what else did you take? In the math classes that you did take for a grade, did you do well? Were the classes all undergrad or did you take some grad math? Have you taken real analysis? If you are really confident in the math, one thing that you could do would be to take the math subject GRE to demonstrate that not only did you "pass" the courses, but also, you know the stuff. It's probably worth it to at least take a couple of practice tests and see how you score. Getting an 800 on the Q section of the general exam doesn't help much (it's expected by top departments) but doing well on the math subject test could really help verify your mathematical preparation, given the P/F courses.

From your descriptions, I'm guessing that the graduate econ classes you took were in a policy or other department, not economics. (Even if they were taught by econ professors.) Is that right? Or, if they were in econ, were they at the masters level rather than the PhD level? I guess the bottom line is that if you've had a micro course using MWG, that helps. If you haven't, well, it helps less -- econ departments discount "grad" econ classes taught in policy schools or at the masters level. They don't ignore them, but there is a substantial difference between such a class and the first year theory sequence in a PhD program.

High school math awards are pretty irrelevant by now.

Your LORs are going to be really important. Who will write them, and have those professors supervised you doing any research? You'll need to think carefully about how you can use your application to demonstrate that your slightly unconventional undergrad program and masters has really prepared you to do rigerous research.

As for where you should apply, a lot of that depends on what you want to study. If you're interested in development, some of the best programs are MIT, Princeton, Yale, Berkeley, and Harvard. Getting into those schools isn't a sure thing for anyone, though. You definitely need to apply to some schools in the 15-30 range as well as at the very top -- and I suspect that you'll be pleasantly surprised by the quality of your classmates and professors at most top 30 programs. It might be a different experience than your masters degree, but it will be challenging and fulfilling.

(oops -- you've now answered a bunch of my questions -- just ignore the ones you answered before I posted this...)

[Starvingecon]

Ok I think you should target 15-30 range plus a few safety schools and reaches. Your math grades and lack of theoretical math will hurt you.

[Karina 07]

Okay, so here's a question: will taking summer courses help me at all? I mean, they'd have to make the decision way before they'd hear my summer courses' grades, but, still, would knowing that I was taking 5 econ or math courses help, and then what balance of econ and math would you recommend? (The city my grandmother lives in has a huge university which would actually have enough upper-level courses in the summer that I could probably do that, or there are things like the American Economic Association Summer Program that I just found online, if I could get into it....) Heck, based on the econ/math courses I've already taken, which specific courses should I do, if they're offered?

I can also try to take the Math GRE if that helps.... Would it really?

Hm... I guess all this preparation would help me if I end up not getting in anywhere... I could take courses and work for a year and try again with those new courses under my belt.... Alternatively, anyone know of any one-year M.Sc.s or the like that might be easier for me to get into and which would presumably give me the background to continue?

Thanks again!!

[asquare]

Karina,

A summer program or classes won't help you get in to a program for next fall -- such courses would be too late. Also, you won't find grad econ classes taught in the summer even at a very large university (and even real analysis is quite hard to find in the summer, even at big and very good schools).

The problem with a one-year MSc is that it still doesn't help that much with admissions, because applications are due before you have grades from such a program and before your professors will know you well enough to write recommendations. PhD programs, especially top programs, don't grant "conditional admissions," so you wouldn't be able to apply this year and say that you'll make up the math in an MSc and defer starting the PhD.

There's no sure way in to a top 5 or top 10 econ PhD program. Even doing a two year MSc wouldn't guarantee you admissions. You have to decide if the marginal cost (delaying a year or two, spending money on tuition) is worth the marginal benefit. And the marginal benefit is tricky -- the increased probability of getting in to a top-whatever school multiplied by the difference in utility from attending that top-whatever school compared to your next best option.

I think your next best option is most likely to be a school ranked 15-30. My personal opinion is that it's not worth doing another masters and spending another year or two to have a higher chance at a top 5 or top 10 school. I think that a paper good enough to get you a really phenomenal job from a top 5 school will also be good enough to get you a really phenomenal job from a top 30 school, if you do things right. Such as working with the right faculty, trying to publish, presenting as much as possible, etc. I strongly believe that a lot of your career path is determined by YOU -- the ideas you have and the ways you execute them. I think that at least any top 20 school can be a perfectly adequate launching pad for a truly motivated, talented student. And I also think that you can get a heck of a good education at a non-top-5 school. As I said, I'd bet money that you would be impressed with the caliber of students and faculty in top-30 graduate econ programs around the country.

None of this is to say that rankings are meaningless (I wrote a long post about this a while ago, and if you really want to know what I thought and what others said, you can look around my profile for old posts -- the thread was something like "irrational obsession with top schools.") And none of it is to say that you shouldn't apply to top programs this year, because you may well get in. But if you want to start a PhD next fall, you should definitely apply to a broad range of schools including some "safeties" you'd be happy to attend. And you should think very carefully about the costs and benefits of waiting, about what you want out of the PhD, and about if you are really only interested in getting the PhD if you can do it at a top 5 or top 10 school.

[Karina 07]

I can see what you're saying, but I still want to take summer courses, at least. I can say that I'm going to be doing X, Y and Z, and I'll also be able to learn some more material.

What would you recommend I try to take in the summer? The following are available, as far as I can see:

Econ:
- Micro theory 2 (probably have covered its material already)
- Macro theory 3 (probably have not)
- Environmental economics
- Cost-benefit analysis
- Public economics: taxation
- Dynamic optimization

Math:
- Applied linear algebra 2 (probably have covered it already?)
- Honours linear algebra 2, probably more theoretical
- A whole slew of calc courses which I've definitely taken :P.
- Applied complex analysis (not sure what it is)

There were other courses available, too, but those were the ones that stood out for me as possibly useful, to widely varying degrees.

Thanks!

[OneMoreEcon]

Karina,

asquare's not telling you that you shouldn't take courses next summer... just that those courses won't count for admissions decisions. That's true. If you want to take courses to be better prepared, then you should take the courses. However, if you're doing it to strenther your profile for admission to PhD programs for next fall, it won't help.

Are you still in the masters program, and is that why you can't take math this semester?

Regarding courses, additional undergrad econ courses aren't the most helpful thing to have. Aside from the dynamic optimization course, I'd probably avoid the econ classes unless you haven't seen some of the material in micro or macro.

For the math, how did you find out what will be taught in the summer? Can you put up a list (hopefully with descriptions) of all the higher-level math classes that will likely be offered?

[asquare]

OneMoreEcon's interpreted what I was saying correctly. It's not that you shouldn't take classes this summer, it's that they won't change your chance of admissions for the coming year.

If your plan is to take classes in the summer to prepare for a program to which you've already been admitted, that's a different thing. If you've had intermediate micro and macro, there's no point in retaking them. But if you haven't, the intution from those classes can be useful. It won't help you solve the problem sets in your first year PhD classes, but it will give you an idea of what the point of all of that theory really is. The topical classes (environmental, public, etc.) aren't useful preparation for grad school.

Dynamic optimization is useful. You will cover it in your math camp or math class, but very quickly, and it would be useful to have a more solid foundation. Linear algebra is definitely useful, but if you've had one course and you're comfortable with the material, I wouldn't bother taking another. And complex analysis -- well, you haven't had real analysis, so that won't work for you. If you can find real analysis or introduction to proof-writing, or if any of the calc classes are proof-based, that would help.