advice on course selection for graduate work in economics

[werther]

hi, I'm not sure if this is a suitable forum for asking such question about undergrad course selections,seeing as how it's econ phd forum, but if anyone could help me out i would really appreciate it.


edit: question below.. my problem sort of changed :\

[chauchau]

if you want to do grad econ, i'd probably drop the micro and macro (stuff is useless), and take all math classes. keep the 'metrics and linear algebra 2 (definitely the latter!), and insert more calc, more calc-based stats!!!, differential equations II, more probability or more analysis or metric spaces.

[werther]

i would love to drop the adv. theory classes, since i was told by people who took them as "memorization" courses (esp. macro) but i am econ major and they are required.

thanks for your advice though. i will probably keep the linear algebra then.

[MWG]

Originally Posted by werther

i would love to drop the adv. theory classes, since i was told by people who took them as "memorization" courses (esp. macro) but i am econ major and they are required.

thanks for your advice though. i will probably keep the linear algebra then.

You may wish to devote serious thinking about this,
I second his advice, econ classes at at large waste of time,
two mathematician from the past are enough to "shake"
the foundation of economics, Von neumann came first
J.F. Nash the second, without a strong background in
mathematics, a top phd program wont take you far enough,
you should not aim at taking the math for the sake to do well/ get into
the program, but for building a strong foundation in which your future
research can laid upon.

[werther]

Originally Posted by MWG

You may wish to devote serious thinking about this,
I second his advice, econ classes at at large waste of time,
two mathematician from the past are enough to "shake"
the foundation of economics, Von neumann came first
J.F. Nash the second, without a strong background in
mathematics, a top phd program wont take you far enough,
you should not aim at taking the math for the sake to do well/ get into
the program, but for building a strong foundation in which your future
research can laid upon.

thanks so much for your advice. (and the poster above)
i think it was a misguided and naive thinking on my part to just to try to hurry up and graduate and get my undergrad and start my master's in econ and finish all my schooling asap. especially since i have so little math as i type this (calc 1,2, linear algebra, stats, mathematical logic, set theory, game theory)

i just put together a quick tentative plan now based on my school and my school's neighbour's (projected) course offerings; if anyone knows a lot about senior math courses specifically good for economics, could you please recommend me some or advise me to get rid of any that i might not need below (thanks):

-coursework plan-

Winter 2006: adv micro & macro, adv econometrics, linear algebra ii, intro to analysis

Spring 2007: calculus 3, probability, diff. eq 1

Fall 2007: measure & integration, groups & rings (i'm not sure if this helps but it's required..homomorphisms?), metric space, and either: a) multivariate analysis (is this hepful?) or b) diff eq 2 (apparently a great deal of computer use)

<apply for MA econ>

Winter 2007: optimization, stochastic calculus, applied real analysis, maybe.. statistics if i can handle all the workload


i tried to pick out the courses that were frequently mentioned on this forum, and supposedly all the courses i mentioned above are all being offered. my goal is to enroll in a good MA Econ program in canada after undergrad and after that i'm not sure what i will do next (U.S. = too expensive). i know everyone says US Master's isn't that good for PhD prep but are they not good even for getting a good econ/quant related jobs in either public or private sector?

thanks for reading..

[asquare]

werther,

Is your ultimate goal a PhD in economics? If so, why are you planning to do a master's first? The master's is a useful intermediate step for people who didn't take enough math or who got poor grades as undergrads, but you seem to be doing enough advance planning not to fall into either of those categories. Why not apply directly to PhD programs during your senior year? A master's degree is NOT a prerequesite for a PhD in economics!

That out of the way, your plan for winter 2006 and spring 2007 looks solid. Of the courses you've listed for fall and winter 2007, I'm sure all could be useful, but not all are necessary! Differential equations 2 could be quite helpful, especially if it gets you used to doing lots of work with mathematica, maple, matlab, and other software. Optimization is very useful. The rest is all icing on the cake. Some people think it's important or advantageous to have lots of advanced math, but what you've listed goes way beyond what is necessary. If you want to do theory in a PhD program, these classes may be of some help. If you want to do applied work, they are less important. And they are certainly not necessary to get in to or do well in a MA program.

Also, I'm going to disagree with others about the value of undergrad theory classes. It depends on your school, but a well-taught intermediate micro and macro sequence can give you a very good understanding of the important concepts in these fields. (Micro especially.) While this won't be of huge direct use at the beginning of a PhD program, it is the sort of economic intuituion that is important in field classes and applied work. Some people pick up the intuition easily from the formal, mathematical first year theory courses in graduate programs, but I've found that having the intuition from my solid undergraduate courses has been very helpful. And I know that the intermediate micro course that undergrads here at UMich take is a very good class. In fact, first year PhD students are often told to go through the intermediate micro problem sets to make sure they understand the intuition! So don't dismiss your econ classes entirely.

Finally, if you have the chance to do research or work as an RA for a professor, jump on it. IMO, that would be a lot better use of your time than extraneous math classes, unless you really enjoy the math.

[SunnyDutt]

This is exactly what I am thinking about myself of what exactly to take in my final 2 years in university before I apply for the PhD/MA in economics. My interests definitely lie in macroeconomics and I was wondering what math courses would help me better prepared for graduate macroeconomics. Since I transferred from a community college before I cam to university....I couldn't take intermediate macro and micro in my 2nd year. But it's never too late....I know I can handle the courseload but is this enough with good grades to be competing for a spot in the PhD admission for schools in the top 30? Please be honest!


This is my schedule for this year

Fall 2006
Intermediate Macro (Year course)
Intermediate Micro (Year course)
Econometrics (Year Course)
Differential Equations I (Half Course)
Linear Programming (Half Course)

Spring 2007
Intermediate Macro (Year course)
Intermediate Micro (Year course)
Econometrics (Year Course)
Intro to Real Analysis (Half Course)
Non Linear Optimization (Half Course)

Summer 2007
International Economics
Financial Economics

Fall 2007
Advanced Macro (Half Course)
Advanced Micro (Half Course)
Advanced Econometrics (Year Course)
Complex Variables (Half Course)
Public Economics (Year Course)
Writing a Senior Thesis (Year Course)

Spring 2007
International Macroeconomics (Half Course)
(One course where I can take math or another eco course)
Advanced Econometrics
Chaos, Fractals and Dynamics
Public Economics
Senior Thesis

[werther]

Thank you Asquare for the comment. The main reason I want to do a Master's in Economics is that my undergrad theory courses are no good. to give you an idea, in third year micro class (intermediate microeconomics II), we used absolutely no integral calculus. which is why only differential calculus (+ stats + linear algebra) is a required course in my program. also, third year macro, we still did solow growth theory, which we learned in second year, but i have no idea why we basically covered the same material, and there was no added advanced concepts to it or anything. we even used the same textbook we used in second year. i think it had something to do with my third year macro prof being the co-authors of the book we happened to use in 2nd year (with blanchard and another guy at U of T) which is why he didn't change the text even in third year macro class (fyi, it's the cdn version of blanchard's macroeconomics text, and i'm not sure how technical the american version is, but this version is very easy to understand and no math unless absolutely necessary).

then i came to this forum and realized in other undergrad courses they actually use integration, multivariable calculus and all that mathematical stuff. which got me all worried. i think it was you who said your school's undergrad intermediate micro uses multivariable calc... unless i'm confusing you for someone else. i didn't even see integration in mine. and it's not that i'm begging for hard stuff, i just worry that i'll be graduating with a 4 year BA Econ with a knowledge of maybe an econ minor, and will die once in grad school. and since most canadian econ master's are at most 1 year, and tuition is around the same or less than undergrad (<$5,000 cdn for sure, per academic year), i figured the opportunity cost wont' be that high. (plus my undergrad is a no-name)

also, i'm not exactly sure if i'm ready to make that commitment, of pursuing a PhD, i mean, it's a lofty idea, but i am not sure if i'm capable of such a thing. especially since i'm struggling in my senior honours thesis course now. i would love to, but i don't think i know what im talking about when i say i would like to pursue a PhD, just yet. i was hoping i'd have better idea after my MA. but really, if i didn't have to take all those maths courses, i would ... not..

edit: hey sunnydutt, did you take calc iii? multivariable.. i'm guessing you did, but if not, you really ought to. and i think a course on sets is helpful, for micro, especially; i looked at MA math camp outline and aside from the standard calc, diff eq, prob/stat review, there was also a review on sets and relations and such.. you use that in game theory lots, i think.

never mind, i had thought you sad micro, but you said macro.

i'm sure someone on this board will better answer your question.. i am on more or less in the same boat as you.

[asquare]

werther, I did use multivariable calc in intermediate micro when I did my undergrad. I don't know whether or not the intermediate micro class at UMich does. For what it's worth, there just isn't a ton of integration in intermediate micro anywhere -- we used some in macro, I guess, but differentiation is definitely more common. I don't think the fact that your micro class didn't use integrals is a sign that it was a bad class.

Don't let this board convince you that you need a master's degree. You're seeing one tail of the distribution of PhD applicants here -- and a lot of well meaning advice taken to the extremes. Lots and lots of people go on to do PhDs from unknown schools or without having taken topology or whatever the math class currently en vogue here is. That's not to say that advanced math and well known schools don't help -- of course they do -- but just reading this board gives you the impression that they are necessary. And that's just not true.

If you want to do a PhD, you should apply to PhD programs. You can apply to master's programs as backup options, but don't put off applying to a PhD just because of what is said or implied on this board. Doing a master's degree might give you a preview of PhD coursework, but it probably will not give you a sense of whether or not you like doing research. And even if tuition is low, the opportunity cost of your time is not. Now, if you are really concerned that you don't have the background to handle PhD coursework, then a master's is useful. Have you talked to your professors? Are there any students from your school who have recently begun PhDs who they could put you in touch with? If your program routinely sends students to PhD programs, then take that as evidence that the preparation is sufficient.

[user_name]

I'm sure you know more about this as a Canadian, but isn't it true that you guys must have an MA before you can do a PhD in economics?

With all due respect, I think asquare might be overestimating the opportunity cost of time. Say the starting salary for a BA holder is 40,000 per year, then to break even you'll need to make an extra 40,000*r = 1,600 per year (say r = 0.04). Can getting in a better school increase your future annual salary by that much? Yes. Does getting an MA improve your chance of getting in a better school? Absolutely!

Moreover isn't it true that most of us here share the sentiment that you don't go into the academia to make money? Well if money is not the issue, then I can't seem to think of any other significant opportunity costs of time, at least not so significant that the benefit of a stronger profile can't offset.

As for taking adv econ classes, I generally agree with everybody that you probably won't learn much in these classes. On the other hand, it's an opportunity to prove yourself to your future recommenders. Anyway I'm not encouraging you to do it, I'm just presenting an alternative point of view.