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kanishka · 2007 March 4th, 01:00 PM

Assuming an applicant is not too confident about his/her application, how good an idea is it to target mid-level schools with the aim of transferring to a better school?

Say the applicant has a masters in economics, and a couple of years work experience in a multinational corporation and one year teaching experience; a GPA in the range 3.0 - 3.5; and GRE scores - 800 quant, 700 verbal, 5.0 analytical.

apropos · 2007 March 4th, 01:22 PM

So, if your profile is not so good, then what other choices do you have, other than not applying at all? However, if you apply to mid-ranked schools with the aim of transferring, keep these things in mind:

1. You probably have to be among the top 10% of your class to be able to transfer. Otherwise, why would the top schools become suddenly interested in you? And how do you know in advance that you will be a top student in your class? It's a PhD program, not a community college. There will be many very smart students there and each one of them understands that if he or she wants to succeed and get a good placement in the end, he or she needs to be absolutely on the top of everyone else. It's a very tough environment. How do you think you will succeed to become the top student? I have heard of several cases where the student had such hopes but they evaporated by the end of first year. Next, if you do become a top student there, why not just stay and finish the program? Being a top student in any program has huge advantages. You will end up getting lots of attention from the program faculty and that will surely be helpful, because you will be their #1 student as opposed Berkeley's #20, and Berkeley's #20 probably fails to attain a placement at a major research university too.

2. You will lose a year or more likely two years on this. Most likely it will take two years, because the top schools will not be impressed with just one semester of good grades. Plus, it might be really hard to have some of those transcripts delivered on time after the first Fall semester. If you're past mid-20s, this could be a huge consideration.

3. Asking your professors at the mid-level university for LoRs might put you into an awkward situation. They might become irritated that you used up school's resources and then decided to leave. It will become doubly awkward if you somehow fail to transfer out because then you will have to be their student until the completion of your Ph.D. degree.

My $0.02

notacolour · 2007 March 4th, 02:54 PM

Every now and then, this question comes up. I give the same answer every time: applying somewhere with intent to transfer is a bad idea, basically for the reasons apropos mentioned. It takes away another year of your life (since your courses won't transfer), not to mention that you'll have to go through the entire application process once again. And while almost everyone thinks he can succeed at a very high level at these "mid-range" schools, chances are that you aren't quite as exceptional as you think, and you won't be the top student at your school. And faculty aren't going to be too enthusiastic about their tenth-best student transferring for no reason other than that he thinks he can do better, reputation-wise.

This is even a worse idea for someone with a master's in economics. You are unlikely to demonstrate anything you didn't demonstrate in your MA program.

A much, much better strategy would be to attend the school that's the best fit for you, and stop worrying about reputation quite so much. As mentioned above, if you really can excel at whatever school is your best fit, and you can do excellent research and develop good relationships with faculty, you could easily fare better than if you had been a middle- or lower-range student at a "top" school.

peterB · 2007 March 4th, 03:28 PM

moved to a new thread.

savingtheplanet · 2007 March 4th, 05:32 PM

Out of curiosity:

How would one communicate to a top-ranked school where one has placed in the PhD courses of the "mid-ranked school"? Presumably, unless you have an A+ on your transcripts, you would need to rely on letter of reference's.

And I certainly cant imagine that any faculty member would be happy to write you letters to transfer out.

A personal aside:

For this reason, I am contemplating sticking around my (unrelated) generously funded master's program and taking econ PhD courses without actually enrolling at the econ dept. If I dont get through to a better place, I shouldn't have much trouble enrolling at econ --- especially if i've taken their courses and done well.

asquare · 2007 March 4th, 07:03 PM

aprops and others have it right. You should enroll in the PhD program from which you intend to graduate; planning to transfer is not a good idea. I agree with the three points aprops makes, though I have slightly different reasoning in some places:

1) As others have said, there is no guarantee that you will be at the top of the class at a lower ranked program. All econ PhD programs are difficult. Sorry to be blunt, but why think that you grades will be better in PhD classes than they were in (easier) masters classes? Everyone who enrolls in a PhD is motivated and departments, even those outside of the top 10 or 20, are full of smart, creative, hard working students. You can plan to work hard and being self confident is good, but you can't plan to be the top student in your program.

2) In the very best case, where you are actually accepted as a transfer student, I think you're set back one year. You will need to spend two years at the school where you start (because you won't have any grades or prelim results to give during the fall of your first year). Then, even if you pass the prelims in micro and macro at your new program (not guaranteed -- each school has a slightly different way of doing things, and also prelims at the higher ranked school may have higher grading standards than at the school you transfer out of), you will have to repeat the field courses.

You will also be "behind" in establishing relationships with professors and other PhD students. These relationships are critical to your success in graduate school; do not take them for granted.

3) (nothing to add to aprops).

There are some situations where transfering does make sense: if you discover that you want to pursue a field that your school does not offer, if all of the faculty who you planned to work with leave the department for some reason, or if there is some sort of compelling, unplanned family situation (though that last will be a harder situation, IMO).

Also, don't despair completely: the absolute most important thing is to write an outstanding job market paper. That is what will get you a good job. A great paper coming out of a mid-ranked university will get you a better job than a weak paper from a top-5 school (though yes, I do think that conditional on quality of paper, students from top schools get better jobs, and that there are reasons that make it easier to write a great paper at a higher ranked school).

asquare · 2007 March 4th, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by savingtheplanet

For this reason, I am contemplating sticking around my (unrelated) generously funded master's program and taking econ PhD courses without actually enrolling at the econ dept. If I dont get through to a better place, I shouldn't have much trouble enrolling at econ --- especially if i've taken their courses and done well.

savingtheplanet, just a little heads up here. If you are at U-Mich (which I'm guessing from your "location") that plan may not work. Even masters of economics students are not allowed to enroll in the PhD core courses.

PhD students from other departments who are required to take the classes (business PhDs, mostly) are allowed. Masters students can take the econ masters courses, but those are not the same as the PhD courses. Masters students are sometimes, with the permission of the professor, allowed to enroll in field classes, but those classes are considered less rigerous and don't carry the same weight with admissions committees (with the exception of the micro, macro, and econometrics fields -- which, again, you can't enroll in unless you've had the prereqs.)

The econ department here is very explicit that the masters in economics program is NOT a "back door" into the PhD program, and I'd be very surprised if they'd allow another masters program at the school to play that role.

Of course, if you are at a different school, then maybe none of this applies! But if you are here, you should research this carefully before you bank too heavily on the plan you mentioned.

kanishka · 2007 March 5th, 04:37 AM

thanks for the feedback. its just an idea one of my friends has, and i really didnt think it was a smart idea.

ghampani · 2007 March 5th, 06:37 AM

kanishka,

I am surprised that you are getting these negative suggestions. As a student at UC Berkeley, I can tell you this: it is normal for A LOT OF foreign students to transfer from midranking schools to top schools after one or two years.

I was looking at a graduate of Yale who ended up at MIT this year, and she too transferred from Tuft to Yale. In fact, I know a lot of my international friends who changed their schools and came to Berkeley. Most of them have same story: they applied to MIT, Yale, Harvard, Berkeley, Miami, Rice, Indiana, Iowa State etc, and all they got was Iowa State. So they went to Iowa State, excelled there, got all As, and applied to other schools.

Do they get recommendations? Humm. It is not an easy question. Surprisingly, it is not hard. I asked a friend of mine this same question. He had taken courses in math department (Real Analysis) and math professor didn't object and wrote a shining recommendation. In fact, he asked an econ professor (metrics) who wrote a reco, but he said just this "I will be sorry to see you go. and won't be able to write much, except that you got A+ in the class." Most of the professors are nice people. They understand that if a student doesn't want to stay around, is not enjoying, it is a bad idea to stop him.

The end result was awesome for my friend: he got into Yale, Upenn and Berkeley. So, don't worry and work hard. Just remember that it is not easy to excel in even midranking schools. PhD programs are tough everywhere.

snappythecrab · 2007 March 5th, 07:11 AM

ghampani,

kanishka is speaking of transfering while in graduate school, not as an undergraduate. there is a big difference.

2007 March 4th, 01:00 PM	#1 (permalink)
kanishka Eager! Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 71	Transferring schools Assuming an applicant is not too confident about his/her application, how good an idea is it to target mid-level schools with the aim of transferring to a better school? Say the applicant has a masters in economics, and a couple of years work experience in a multinational corporation and one year teaching experience; a GPA in the range 3.0 - 3.5; and GRE scores - 800 quant, 700 verbal, 5.0 analytical.

2007 March 5th, 07:11 AM	#10 (permalink)
snappythecrab TestMagic Guru-in-Training Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 690	ghampani, kanishka is speaking of transfering while in graduate school, not as an undergraduate. there is a big difference. _ _ _ _ SIG _ _ _ _ University of Wisconsin - Madison: Took my Masters and ran.

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2007 March 4th, 01:22 PM	#2 (permalink)
apropos TestMagic Guru-in-Training Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 767	So, if your profile is not so good, then what other choices do you have, other than not applying at all? However, if you apply to mid-ranked schools with the aim of transferring, keep these things in mind: 1. You probably have to be among the top 10% of your class to be able to transfer. Otherwise, why would the top schools become suddenly interested in you? And how do you know in advance that you will be a top student in your class? It's a PhD program, not a community college. There will be many very smart students there and each one of them understands that if he or she wants to succeed and get a good placement in the end, he or she needs to be absolutely on the top of everyone else. It's a very tough environment. How do you think you will succeed to become the top student? I have heard of several cases where the student had such hopes but they evaporated by the end of first year. Next, if you do become a top student there, why not just stay and finish the program? Being a top student in any program has huge advantages. You will end up getting lots of attention from the program faculty and that will surely be helpful, because you will be their #1 student as opposed Berkeley's #20, and Berkeley's #20 probably fails to attain a placement at a major research university too. 2. You will lose a year or more likely two years on this. Most likely it will take two years, because the top schools will not be impressed with just one semester of good grades. Plus, it might be really hard to have some of those transcripts delivered on time after the first Fall semester. If you're past mid-20s, this could be a huge consideration. 3. Asking your professors at the mid-level university for LoRs might put you into an awkward situation. They might become irritated that you used up school's resources and then decided to leave. It will become doubly awkward if you somehow fail to transfer out because then you will have to be their student until the completion of your Ph.D. degree. My $0.02

2007 March 4th, 02:54 PM	#3 (permalink)
notacolour TestMagic Guru-in-Training Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 805	Every now and then, this question comes up. I give the same answer every time: applying somewhere with intent to transfer is a bad idea, basically for the reasons apropos mentioned. It takes away another year of your life (since your courses won't transfer), not to mention that you'll have to go through the entire application process once again. And while almost everyone thinks he can succeed at a very high level at these "mid-range" schools, chances are that you aren't quite as exceptional as you think, and you won't be the top student at your school. And faculty aren't going to be too enthusiastic about their tenth-best student transferring for no reason other than that he thinks he can do better, reputation-wise. This is even a worse idea for someone with a master's in economics. You are unlikely to demonstrate anything you didn't demonstrate in your MA program. A much, much better strategy would be to attend the school that's the best fit for you, and stop worrying about reputation quite so much. As mentioned above, if you really can excel at whatever school is your best fit, and you can do excellent research and develop good relationships with faculty, you could easily fare better than if you had been a middle- or lower-range student at a "top" school.

2007 March 4th, 03:28 PM	#4 (permalink)
peterB Within my grasp! Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 112	moved to a new thread.

2007 March 4th, 05:32 PM	#5 (permalink)
savingtheplanet Attending UC Berkeley Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 337	Out of curiosity: How would one communicate to a top-ranked school where one has placed in the PhD courses of the "mid-ranked school"? Presumably, unless you have an A+ on your transcripts, you would need to rely on letter of reference's. And I certainly cant imagine that any faculty member would be happy to write you letters to transfer out. A personal aside: For this reason, I am contemplating sticking around my (unrelated) generously funded master's program and taking econ PhD courses without actually enrolling at the econ dept. If I dont get through to a better place, I shouldn't have much trouble enrolling at econ --- especially if i've taken their courses and done well.

2007 March 4th, 07:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
asquare TestMagic Guru Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ann Arbor Posts: 1,725	aprops and others have it right. You should enroll in the PhD program from which you intend to graduate; planning to transfer is not a good idea. I agree with the three points aprops makes, though I have slightly different reasoning in some places: 1) As others have said, there is no guarantee that you will be at the top of the class at a lower ranked program. All econ PhD programs are difficult. Sorry to be blunt, but why think that you grades will be better in PhD classes than they were in (easier) masters classes? Everyone who enrolls in a PhD is motivated and departments, even those outside of the top 10 or 20, are full of smart, creative, hard working students. You can plan to work hard and being self confident is good, but you can't plan to be the top student in your program. 2) In the very best case, where you are actually accepted as a transfer student, I think you're set back one year. You will need to spend two years at the school where you start (because you won't have any grades or prelim results to give during the fall of your first year). Then, even if you pass the prelims in micro and macro at your new program (not guaranteed -- each school has a slightly different way of doing things, and also prelims at the higher ranked school may have higher grading standards than at the school you transfer out of), you will have to repeat the field courses. You will also be "behind" in establishing relationships with professors and other PhD students. These relationships are critical to your success in graduate school; do not take them for granted. 3) (nothing to add to aprops). There are some situations where transfering does make sense: if you discover that you want to pursue a field that your school does not offer, if all of the faculty who you planned to work with leave the department for some reason, or if there is some sort of compelling, unplanned family situation (though that last will be a harder situation, IMO). Also, don't despair completely: the absolute most important thing is to write an outstanding job market paper. That is what will get you a good job. A great paper coming out of a mid-ranked university will get you a better job than a weak paper from a top-5 school (though yes, I do think that conditional on quality of paper, students from top schools get better jobs, and that there are reasons that make it easier to write a great paper at a higher ranked school).

2007 March 5th, 04:37 AM	#8 (permalink)
kanishka Eager! Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 71	thanks for the feedback. its just an idea one of my friends has, and i really didnt think it was a smart idea.

2007 March 5th, 06:37 AM	#9 (permalink)
ghampani I JUST got here. Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 13	kanishka, I am surprised that you are getting these negative suggestions. As a student at UC Berkeley, I can tell you this: it is normal for A LOT OF foreign students to transfer from midranking schools to top schools after one or two years. I was looking at a graduate of Yale who ended up at MIT this year, and she too transferred from Tuft to Yale. In fact, I know a lot of my international friends who changed their schools and came to Berkeley. Most of them have same story: they applied to MIT, Yale, Harvard, Berkeley, Miami, Rice, Indiana, Iowa State etc, and all they got was Iowa State. So they went to Iowa State, excelled there, got all As, and applied to other schools. Do they get recommendations? Humm. It is not an easy question. Surprisingly, it is not hard. I asked a friend of mine this same question. He had taken courses in math department (Real Analysis) and math professor didn't object and wrote a shining recommendation. In fact, he asked an econ professor (metrics) who wrote a reco, but he said just this "I will be sorry to see you go. and won't be able to write much, except that you got A+ in the class." Most of the professors are nice people. They understand that if a student doesn't want to stay around, is not enjoying, it is a bad idea to stop him. The end result was awesome for my friend: he got into Yale, Upenn and Berkeley. So, don't worry and work hard. Just remember that it is not easy to excel in even midranking schools. PhD programs are tough everywhere.

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