Conundrum: 3-year Non-European undergraduate degree and econ. graduate admission.

[agarwaen.mormegil]

Now, i'm and economics honors student from Calcutta, India and we've a British 3-year undergraduate honors degree system at the University of Calcutta.

 

I've got some questions and I'm in desperate need of SOUND ADVICE!! :rolleyes:

 

When it comes to graduate studies, not many US grad schools accepts 3-year degrees.

Now that is completely discriminatory for a host of reasons but that's besides the point.

 

I am graduating next year with honors and applying for admission in Ph.D programs in the 2008 fall session and since i'm unwilling to wait for another year, i did a lot of research and e-mailing (to deptt. heads and grad prog. directors of over 100 econ. schools) and came up with a list of graduate schools that accepts 3-year non-european degrees.

 

Among top-rated schools, Cornell is the only one out there. Though i've not received word from Brown and North-Western yet and i've skipped the rest of the ivy leagues.

 

My areas of research interest are: Political Economy, Development Economics.

I have real analysis, calculus and all the maths requirements covered as we've a very very heavy syllabus. Although my maths grades are pretty average.

 

My questions are:

1. will a high GRE score (say 1350+ including 740+ in quant.) and good recommendations be able to overcome the 1-year deficit?

 

2. Should i do a year of Masters' and then apply 'cause my choices would then be wider and admission more secured?

 

3. i have done research papers, one of which has been accepted at the Annual Conference of the Indian Economic Association, the official and largest organization of professional Indian economists (whose past presidents include Amartya Sen and the current Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh).

I'm also doing a project for one of those Business Plan competitions organized by the likes of Oxford Business School, Harvard Business School et al.

 

Will these papers count?

 

4. I'm giving a list of some of the econ. grad schools which accepts 3-year degrees. Would anyone of you please advise me which one of 'em are better schools for Political Economy an Development Eco.?

 

American U., Georgetown, U Georgia, NCSU, George Mason, U Wisconsin at Milwaukee, Boston U., Suffolk U., North-Eastern U., U Massachusetts at Amherst, Texas A&M, Cornell, UCSB, UCSC, Brown, U Kentucky, Temple U., Emory U.

 

btw, I'm giving GRE and TOEFL this september. :eek::tup:

[Thesus]

The one point that stands out for me there is that 740+ is not a high quant. 780+ is. Didn't someone on this board say once that 'An 800Q is like not having a criminal conviction'?

[agarwaen.mormegil]

Oops, sorry. I was going to re-edit that before you commented. I was going to say 780+.

Or even at least 760 if the exam goes way too bad.

[betahat]

You'll probably have much better choices if you do a 1 year masters in London first (assuming you do well on the first round of mock exams before Chirstmas). Also if you do well overall in the masters you can usually get admittance to the school's econ PhD and then the year isn't "lost."

 

Of the departments you listed: Brown and Boston U. are probably the best for your interests. BU's star students seem to place well (http://www.bu.edu/econ/graduate/placements/index.html).

 

I think UMASS, Amherst might be a heterodox department, but I'm not sure. Does anyone else know?

[ForTheWin_08]

I'm South African, and we also have the three-year undergraduate degree here. For us, `honours' is a one-year degree that you can choose to do afterwards, and is a prerequisite for masters - it's basically like the fourth year of a U.S. undergrad degree. Is it not the same in India (also being an former British colony)?

 

Incidentally, if you're unwilling to wait another year, then why do you list taking a year-long masters degree as an option?

[agarwaen.mormegil]

I'm South African, and we also have the three-year undergraduate degree here. For us, `honours' is a one-year degree that you can choose to do afterwards, and is a prerequisite for masters - it's basically like the fourth year of a U.S. undergrad degree. Is it not the same in India (also being an former British colony)?

 

Incidentally, if you're unwilling to wait another year, then why do you list taking a year-long masters degree as an option?

 

well, i mentioned it for a "just in case" thing. it really doesn't matter much if i get in to a grad school which is listed beyond the top 200 econ. schools or even top 100 for that matter.

i'm in a fluid state to be honest. :hmm:

 

And to your question, no, we don't have that system in India or at least in our university. Either you get admitted in the first year as an honors student or a so-called 'general' student without honors. of course, the former has to keep a certain minimum grades in the exams to keep his honors. ;)

[kanishka]

I'm from India, and would strongly advise you NOT to go to graduate school in the US before you have done a masters from India, simply because the coursework is much much harder at a graduate level.

 

Not only will you find the actual work easier once you do a masters, but also you can think of applying all the way up to the top 5 (if you do well in your masters degree) instead of lowly ranked schools - which may leave you worse off in the long run than if you had finished up your masters first.

 

Another thing you may wish to consider is whether you really want to do a PhD, because if you're not sure about that then you may as well continue and finish up a masters. The job market in India for a masters is now pretty good.

 

Evaluate very carefully what it is you want to do, and how best to get it.

 

I'd go for #2 if I was in your position. Ten years down the line, you dont want to think "If only I'd hung around for a couple of years..."

 

Good luck with GRE! Get an 800

[agarwaen.mormegil]

I'm from India, and would strongly advise you NOT to go to graduate school in the US before you have done a masters from India, simply because the coursework is much much harder at a graduate level.

 

Not only will you find the actual work easier once you do a masters, but also you can think of applying all the way up to the top 5 (if you do well in your masters degree) instead of lowly ranked schools - which may leave you worse off in the long run than if you had finished up your masters first.

 

Another thing you may wish to consider is whether you really want to do a PhD, because if you're not sure about that then you may as well continue and finish up a masters. The job market in India for a masters is now pretty good.

 

Evaluate very carefully what it is you want to do, and how best to get it.

 

I'd go for #2 if I was in your position. Ten years down the line, you dont want to think "If only I'd hung around for a couple of years..."

 

Good luck with GRE! Get an 800

 

hey, thanks for the advice, mate.

Yes, the jobs market is pretty good for an economist in India. But had i cared about only a masters and a quickie job as a lowly number cruncher in a bank (although the pay is good), then i wouldn't have bothered to apply for Ph.d in US grad schools. besides, why should anyone learn their masters course stuff all over again in the US?

To paraphrase Stillwater guitarist Russel Hammond (Billy Crudup) from Almost Famous, a beloved movie of mine: "in 11 years, it'd be 2018. Think about that."

 

If things don't work out well (like if i get in to a poorly ranked grad school) then obviously i will go for a year of masters in india before applying again. But i'd take my chance with a 3-year degree. :D And being an optimist (judiciously or not), i like my chances.

 

Thanks again. :)

[kanishka]

First of all, there is no such thing as a quickie job as a lowly number cruncher in a bank. There is an equal opportunity to be creative and intelligent within a private sector set-up as there is in academics albeit in a different way. (Do you mean to say anyone who works in a bank lacks ambition?)

 

I dont think you quite understand as yet what you're going in for. Getting admission into a good program (rankings are just one way to measure how good a program is for you) is only part of the deal. Without adequate earlier preparation, doing well is going to be a struggle. I've been through both undergrad and grad economics and the syllabi of the two are decades apart.

 

You also need to figure out that at the end of the day you want to do a phd, which will require you to research. Research and study demand different skills, and just being a good student (if you make it this far) does not guarantee that you'll be a good researcher. I know plenty of people who went in for a phd without any adequate research background and took really long to complete it. Some did not complete it too.

 

You dont want to be stuck in a good school with poor grades, and this is - your optimism apart - highly probable to occur, believe me. I've suffered bad grades and only just managed to improve them. Your relative standing vis-a-vis other students in your class will also be (probably) lower than if you had done a masters from India/LSE.

 

Another reason why you may want to change your mind is that the better schools on your list will in all likelihood reject you due to your lack of grad econ study. There are plenty of people who apply with a masters from India, you are in competition with them and at a clear disadvantage.

 

Last, even if you do get admission, funding is going to be a problem as you're certainly (at the time of admission) a higher risk student than someone who has studied some grad level courses. So think about that as well.

 

Good luck with whatever it is you decide to do! I just fear that you're wasting your time and money on an unnecessary application; finish one year get good grades and the profs in your college impressed and then apply.

 

Last, since you havent mentioned it, getting LOR's from undergrad profs/lecturers will also not be as effective as LOR's from profs in masters level colleges.

 

So on the following points you're at a disadvantage - experience with coursework, LOR's, funding, ability to get "good" grades - than someone who's done a masters. It's just not worth it according to me.

[Ricardinho]

I very much agree with what kanishka has said. But just to look at the other side, there are circumstances under which your applications might work out: 1. You are one of the very best students at your school (top 1% or thereabouts), and your school has a track record of sending its best students to the schools you are applying to. 2. You can get very strong recommendations from professors who can adequately comment on your research abilities. This usually means that they themselves are active researchers, and therefore known to other researchers in their fields. As the others have said, GRE quant score should be as high as possible. You mention that you don't really care if you get into a school that's ranked below 200. That's cool, but if there are things which you can do to improve your chances significantly, then i think most ppl on this board would think it's worthwhile.

[agarwaen.mormegil]

I very much agree with what kanishka has said. But just to look at the other side, there are circumstances under which your applications might work out: 1. You are one of the very best students at your school (top 1% or thereabouts), and your school has a track record of sending its best students to the schools you are applying to. 2. You can get very strong recommendations from professors who can adequately comment on your research abilities. This usually means that they themselves are active researchers, and therefore known to other researchers in their fields. As the others have said, GRE quant score should be as high as possible. You mention that you don't really care if you get into a school that's ranked below 200. That's cool, but if there are things which you can do to improve your chances significantly, then i think most ppl on this board would think it's worthwhile.

 

By that comment, i meant that i do care where i get in to and it'd not be worthwhile to do your ph.d in a school ranked beyond 200. although it might be said that rankings though dominant aren't everything.

 

Now, i don't know whether i'm going to be in the top 1% or not as the results are yet to be declared but i can assure you of the pts. 1 and 2 will be applicable to my case.

In an e-mail repartee, the deptt. chair of a well-known New England private university commented that i hail from a very well regarded university with an extremely rigorous syllabus and given other things (like high GRE score and good grades) i should have no trouble getting admission despite my 3-year degree in a school which accepts such degree.

 

So we shall see.

[agarwaen.mormegil]

Last, since you havent mentioned it, getting LOR's from undergrad profs/lecturers will also not be as effective as LOR's from profs in masters level colleges.

 

So on the following points you're at a disadvantage - experience with coursework, LOR's, funding, ability to get "good" grades - than someone who's done a masters. It's just not worth it according to me.

 

I was going to start a thread on this LOR topic. Now, I've studied under professors who've plenty of research experience in their belt and have been to international and national economics conferences multiple times and teach masters level courses in other colleges besides mine and of course holds a Ph.D.

They're no less in research experience to any university professor. So wouldn't their LORs count?

 

Or i should put it in this way: How much LORs count for an international student? I have heard adcoms. don't put much weightage on LORs of international applicants.

 

And many thanks for the reality check. Your comment reinforces the pitfalls in my desired path and also the fact that it's a high risk one.

I also understand i'm at a considerable disadvantage.

 

Lastly, i didn't mean that economists working in banks or in the private sector don't have ambition. In fact, they are more driven as many may argue.

I meant to say that if i had no plans for doing research then i'd have been satisfied with a masters degree and a decent private sector job given the impressive job market for an economist in India.

I should have used a softer analogy.:blush:

[kanishka]

Ah see I dont know much about the profs you've studied under; most of the profs that teach in undergrad in Delhi do limited research, and I havent heard things are different in other cities but perhaps I'm wrong.

 

I do know one person who did not do a masters - in fact he didn't even give his GRE - and got admission into Duke. But he had 6 years of work experience as a social activist and had worked extensively with Elinor Ostrom and suchlike.