jjmann Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 We always hear that "lukewarm" letters are not good and should avoid it at all possible costs... but what does a lukewarm letter usually mean? Can anyone give an example or idea of what will be the contents of a lukewarm letter? or how it might sound like? if someone has 2 very good leteters and 1 good letter, then will that 1 good letter become a lukewarm letter? Thanks in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckykid Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 XXX, was my student and did sufficient work while in class. signed, luke warm letter writer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karina 07 Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 The definition of "lukewarm" imho should depend on what kind of school you're trying to get into, though I don't think people tend to think about it that way. But try to get into a really great school, and letters like this look bad: "X was my student in A, B and C, and I supervised his thesis. [insert some details.] X is very intelligent and hard-working and probably in the upper 20-30% of his class." (I'd expect you'd need a prof to think you better than just that kind of percentile, I mean!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palimpsest Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 The definition of "lukewarm" imho should depend on what kind of school you're trying to get into, though I don't think people tend to think about it that way. But try to get into a really great school, and letters like this look bad: "X was my student in A, B and C, and I supervised his thesis. [insert some details.] X is very intelligent and hard-working and probably in the upper 20-30% of his class." (I'd expect you'd need a prof to think you better than just that kind of percentile, I mean!) I would agree with Karina. Most schools' recommendation forms ask the prof to rate you relative to other students, whether that means you are upper 20-30%, best in your class, best in 5 years, or best in 2 decades. The significance of these ratings varies a lot based on where you studied for undergrad as well as the institution to which you are applying. I went to a top 25 public, top 40 econ school. For top 15 or 20 apps, I'd say a lukewarm rec for me would be something like "he was in the top 10% of his class". I think I'd really need a "Best I've had in years" or "As good as my former student, who is succeeding at school Y's PhD program." But obviously, if I had gone to say MIT, and Daron Acemoglu is writing my letter, then "Best I've had in years" is probably not a lower bound for a successful application. Basically, this a really long-winded way of saying that what is and is not lukewarm is relative. I think the consensus on this board is that to figure out the "temperature" of the letter, you ought to simultaneously ask where that prof thinks you ought to be applying. ----------------------------------------- Common Tragedies--An environmental economics blog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treasuries Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 But try to get into a really great school, and letters like this look bad: "X was my student in A, B and C, and I supervised his thesis. [insert some details.] X is very intelligent and hard-working and probably in the upper 20-30% of his class." (I'd expect you'd need a prof to think you better than just that kind of percentile, I mean!) If instead the quoted percentile would be "in the upper 5%" of his class, would that be a good letter now, instead of lukewarm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntEcon80 Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 So what is a professor supposed to say then other than he is one my best student, and such and such? With all the work that professors have to do, do you guys really beleive they will spend hours trying to write a somewhat unique letter. As I was a theoretical physics major, one my recommender told me that in the letter he wrote me, he said that he pretty much talked about the project I did in his course, computational physics. He compared my final project with that of the other students and said that I finished the project earlier than everyone else and that it was the best one. Of course he said other things, but that was the main highlight of the letter. Is such letter a "lukewarm#? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fp3690 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I dont really have to say anything on the topic, but its really interesting, it should be hot again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08Applicant Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I worried about the whole percent issue. I took real analysis with 25 students. About 20 were math majors (maybe 15+ considering math for grad school), 4 were grad students, some in engineering (1 was an econ phd student, my former TA), and me. I was the only "applied math" undergrad as the "pure math" kids liked to call me. Both quarters I was ranked 7-10 in the class. He handed out rankings twice midway through the courses. Both quarters I got an A-. Should I be expected to compete with 20 math majors in their senior year when most had already had 5-8 upper division proof-based courses in abstract algebra, linear algebra, differential equations, or topology. I had ONE upper division course under my belt when I started real analysis: intro linear algebra. My professor knew I was there for econ and he knew I was less prepared than most there. Even if he qualifies his statement and says something like, "He was the top 30% of the class despite such and such disadvantages." Will Harvard give a crap or will they just think, "potential? maybe. but here's another kid who got the A." I don't know the answer. EDIT: Since it was over a year ago I had forgotten. I never finished the pre-reqs for Real Analysis. I had to ask the professor to let me in. I actually finished the last pre-req course one quarter after I finished real analysis. Is that worth mentioning in a statement of purpose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon The Black Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I am from India and whilst asking my professors for recommendations, I had asked them to write in sufficient detail and had given the recommendation evaluation form that most schools have where they give directions to the letter writers. I saw my own recommendations where all 3 of my professors have said that I was one of the best in research ability in their careers and definitely in the top 2-5% (this varies from professor to professor) (My class rank is top 2%) They also went into great detail about my class ranking, percentage, course load, projects, research papers and other extra curricular activities. They also attached brief biography's and courses which I have taken of themselves (at my request) so that they adcoms can judge that these professors are experienced hands at teaching in a good school. Are these lukewarm letters for good schools? Actually, I have no way to judge because we don't have this system here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savingtheplanet Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Ancalagon, your letters obviously cannot be called lukewarm -- they are filled with superlatives. However, depending on where in India you are applying from, your letter-writers may be completely unknown to the adcoms. This would probably result in some deflation when your letters are being interpreted. Are your letter-writers economists? letters from non-economists are typically disregarded -- i have even been told by people on adcoms that they simply do not read letters by non-economists. are your letter writers able to compare you with others who have gone on to top departments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yuio Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 out of curiosity say, if a pretty famous prof in top5-6 department said that X is one of the best students in econ department (top 1-2%) and I believe that X will place in the top quarter of the best Phd programs. that's all the prof said in a very terse letter (about 8-10 lines). Is it considered a lukewarm letter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayern Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 out of curiosity say, if a pretty famous prof in top5-6 department said that X is one of the best students in econ department (top 1-2%) and I believe that X will place in the top quarter of the best Phd programs. that's all the prof said in a very terse letter (about 8-10 lines). Is it considered a lukewarm letter? I think the adcoms will be more interested in knowing why the famous prof thinks the student is brilliant. Remember, the adcoms are not only looking for great students, they are also looking for people who are nice match. They are also trying to figure out why that student is unique. Suppose the prof says he got highest in two of my classes... that might not be enough, if the prof does not mention anything about research skills... afterall thats what you are going to do and learn in grad school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savingtheplanet Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 out of curiosity say, if a pretty famous prof in top5-6 department said that X is one of the best students in econ department (top 1-2%) and I believe that X will place in the top quarter of the best Phd programs. that's all the prof said in a very terse letter (about 8-10 lines). Is it considered a lukewarm letter? No, this would be strong letter. You would probably want to supplement it with more detailed letters, though -- i.e. letters that speak to the personal and research skills that Bayern refers to. Economists are well-known for writing terse letters. There is a lot of information in the fact that you were in the top 2% in a top university, and that you are predicted to be in the top quarter of harvard students (if admitted) by a professor who knows what that means. congratulations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon The Black Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 savingtheplanet: Actually, I am from an undergraduate business program - a good university in India - not an IIT (ranked just after them though) because they don't have undergraduate business. Only one of my professors is an economist but he is a pretty well known economist in India (from Delhi School of Economics) One professor is from information technology and the other is from civil engineering. (all solid professors with plenty of research experience, meaning that they are pretty aged people :D) I am not even applying to economics programs. I am applying to PhD in Information Systems in bschools/ischools. I just frequent this forum because interesting topics are discussed and my research interests right now are in the economics of information systems. I do have 3 publications in business economics and environmental economics though. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
italos Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Here is an example of a lukewarm letter I have known Mr.X since DATE when he attended my course in COURSE NAME. Apart from passing the final (written) exam, in UNIVERSITY NAME students in COURSE NAME (mainly the most interested and active ones during the lectures) are required to form groups, do presentations in class on the current economic events of an assigned area of the world and finally prepare a written paper due the date of the exam. The paper is usually referred to the current events of the assigned area or is related to some recent theoretical developments in FIELD although investigated with appropriate undergraduate tools. Mr. X prepared a good final paper together with other students. The weekly reports by NAME were interesting and well-presented with thorough descriptions of the current events. He passed the final exam with an excellent grade (equivalent to A), although initially he showed some difficulties. During the preparation of his undergraduate dissertation, Mr. X arranged a few appointments with me since he wanted to talk about his ideas and development of his thesis. I have been struck by the assertiveness and the passion for economics Mr. X has. I think they are important qualities for a perspective graduate student. His relationships with other students were excellent and his English proficiency was well above the average in my classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pookie bear Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 wow...old topic Italos, would you say that statement holds for LOR's from math profs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
italos Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 wow...old topic Italos, would you say that statement holds for LOR's from math profs? IMHO yes it does...but excuse me do you consider this LOR as a good or a strong one???????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pookie bear Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 With all the programs stressing math proficiency, I find it hard to believe that a strong LOR from my real analysis prof would be discounted. Correct me if I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
italos Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 With all the programs stressing math proficiency, I find it hard to believe that a strong LOR from my real analysis prof would be discounted. Correct me if I'm wrong. Given that his LOR is strong I think it will benefit your application rather hurt you.Actually ,many people mostly coming from US unis do have as a 3rd referee a maths professor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pookie bear Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Okay that's what I thought. I must have misunderstood your original comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asianeconomist Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 Here is an example of a lukewarm letter I have known Mr.X since DATE when he attended my course in COURSE NAME. Apart from passing the final (written) exam, in UNIVERSITY NAME students in COURSE NAME (mainly the most interested and active ones during the lectures) are required to form groups, do presentations in class on the current economic events of an assigned area of the world and finally prepare a written paper due the date of the exam. The paper is usually referred to the current events of the assigned area or is related to some recent theoretical developments in FIELD although investigated with appropriate undergraduate tools. Mr. X prepared a good final paper together with other students. The weekly reports by NAME were interesting and well-presented with thorough descriptions of the current events. He passed the final exam with an excellent grade (equivalent to A), although initially he showed some difficulties. During the preparation of his undergraduate dissertation, Mr. X arranged a few appointments with me since he wanted to talk about his ideas and development of his thesis. I have been struck by the assertiveness and the passion for economics Mr. X has. I think they are important qualities for a perspective graduate student. His relationships with other students were excellent and his English proficiency was well above the average in my classes. I won't go into the details, but this definitely looks like a 'lukewarm'-ish LOR to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliephant Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 A couple of interesting websites with examples of what bad letters look like, and ideas (for letter-writers) about how they can be made better: Michigan (med school); Brown (comp sci); Washington (also comp sci). None of these is for economics, but I found them quite insightful nonetheless. At the very least, they helped me to figure out which potential letter-writers are actually capable of writing the "good" kind (in terms of what they know about me, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artichoke Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 XXX, was my student and did sufficient work while in class. signed, luke warm letter writer. No, that's a murderously bad letter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
repave Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 No, that's a murderously bad letter. I've heard "This student will likely not succeed in a PhD program" before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
student93 Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I've heard "This student will likely not succeed in a PhD program" before Seriously??? What a horrible prof... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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