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There is no p,h, or d in romance: the graduate student dating conundrum


zappa24

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Before I entered the PhD program, a thought occurred to me (being a single guy) about what type of romance a person in a PhD program could start. The thought was this: there really isn't very much in the way of creating romantic opportunities in a PhD program. First and foremost is the amount time that must be devoted to classes. But, even if you find the time, the question becomes who. It is not the days of John Nash where you can go around dating your students, so people you meet through TA'ing are out. Your pretty much isolated in your own department, which rules out another source. The outside world is off limits because grad students have so few hours to devote to being in the outside world. That seems to leave other PhD students, but if the relationship becomes one of a permanent form, someone will have to sacrifice at least their short-term aspirations in favor of the significant other. It would especially be true for two people trying to get into academics, as it is unlikely for both to get academic jobs at the same or nearby schools of equal stature. When I noted that last point to the people in my study group, another person who is dating a PhD student from another program raised the same concerns.

 

(Trying to summon up my best, inner Carrie Bradshaw)

So, is it the single PhD student's lot in life to study everything but the Book of Love?

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Speak for yourself, as I definitely plan to have a social life and be meeting women during grad school. I mean, why are you worried about where to meet people? That part is going to be pretty much the same as in undergrad or any other stage in your life (which is not particularly easy, but it's also not particularly difficult). Yeah, sure we all might not have a lot of free time, but that's the case for many people who still meet members of the opposite sex (or the same sex if that's your thing). Besides, why did you make it sound like you are "stuck" with PhD Econ students? There will be people in other departments, working on various masters degrees, PhDs, JDs, MBAs, etc. Not to mention undergrads (unless you feel that's off limits for you) and not to mention people you meet who aren't in college (such as recent grads). In my own personal opinion, meeting people is mostly about someone's personality, social skills, etc. So if you usually don't have much trouble meeting women, then don't sweat it, I'm sure you'll do just fine.
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Besides, why did you make it sound like you are "stuck" with PhD Econ students? There will be people in other departments, working on various masters degrees, PhDs, JDs, MBAs, etc. Not to mention undergrads (unless you feel that's off limits for you) and not to mention people you meet who aren't in college (such as recent grads). In my own personal opinion, meeting people is mostly about someone's personality, social skills, etc. So if you usually don't have much trouble meeting women, then don't sweat it, I'm sure you'll do just fine.

 

I didn't so much mean "stuck" as "more probable to be". That's one of the reasons I noted my study partner, who is going out with someone outside the department. Yet, the problem of being together and not sacrificing one's carrer for the other remains in the future remains. The problem is lessened when the degrees are different. The nature of the PhD placement process still applies: you don't know where you are going to end up. The best offer you get may not give many opportunities to your significant other. I wasn't implying that it made romance impossible (okay, maybe a little for dramatic effect), but it does create obstacles that have to be dealt with. The main point of my post was to see if anyone on the board has had similar concerns because they were dating someone who may end up with a different optimal location than he/she.

 

I, luckily, will have some opportunities to get outside my department (I'm planning on trying out for one of my school's choirs.)

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zappa24's primary concern seems to boil down to the fact that it is difficult to meet your love in your PhD program courses, while dating the undergrads you TA is off-limits. Both of the listed reasons are usually true. However, I don't see how this situation is much different from a typical undergrad experience for many technical majors. I majored in a "hard" subject. The ratio of girls to boys was like 30/70 or so, and I rarely liked the girls in the same courses anyways. This is usually true at most school but not always (I have met hot female math majors and graduate econ students every once in a while but I admit those are relatively rare). So, how should you meet people? I suggest to develop a life outside of your degree program, at least after the first year exams are over. For example, cultivate genuine interests in non-academic activities of your choice and join a campus club. That's what I did during the last couple of years at my undergrad institution and met lots of great boys and girls who are not math or econ majors. Or maybe you could join graduate student government, or .. If it's not easy to meet people on college campus, then I don't know where it is..
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I think it's really difficult to meet someone outside of grad school once you're in it. You won't have much time for anything else. I see a lot of people start dating people within their classes, TA group or across departments (i.e. find someone over at the maths dept, vice versa). But I rarely see someone date people outside of this academic environment (unless of course he/she was involved prior to starting the grad program).
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After 4 years of undergrad its hard to believe that you have not found your love yet. Well try to meet your love before you start your program. There are plenty of beautiful woman around, don't wait until you start your Phd to find one. The longer you wait, the older you get, the harder things become. Go to clubs, socialize, get connections from family/friends, get a social life. I know plenty of Phd students and trust me they make sure they enjoy life as well
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After 4 years of undergrad its hard to believe that you have not found your love yet. Well try to meet your love before you start your program.

This may not work for internationals. It is hard to start a serious relationship knowing that you/your partner is going for 5 years completely away. Moreover, it is hard to find someone in us, if you want to return to your home country... :doh:

at least ceteris paribus, it is more complicated and brings more opportunity costs.

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I agree with Olm: that statement by IntEcon80 is right up there with some of the most obnoxious statements ever made in this forum.

 

Seriously, wtf?

 

 

As for the OP: Your concerns are certainly valid. It's not easy at all to meet people, but doing things that would bring you into contact with grad students from other departments can't hurt. My school unfortunately doesn't have too many other competent graduate programs, so there aren't too many prospects there.

 

And this is on top of the general difficulty 20somethings have of meeting people to date now that the "easy" connections undergrad life afforded are gone...

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oops my apology! Poor choice of words. I really wanted to tell him to just keep socializing and he will be fine. Of course even after 40 years it is possible not to find love. I am really not in a position to judge anyone's quest for love, I justed wanted to stress out to him the good opportunities out there as an undergrad. My intent was not to write a harmful advice
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There will probably be alot more time to meet people post-Comps. I also know a recently graduated PhD who spent most of his free time playing with his band around the US. (And he placed well academically). Yet another way to meet the ladies.

 

And... take it from me, you can meet plenty of people on TM! I have now lived with two different posters and dated two others. Though, it is slightly strange when you both come home and the first thing you do is check the new posts in this forum. :)

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No one has really answered the main part of my question: how do two PhD students handle placement? At least one poster has talked about PhD students getting together. Did one have to sacrifice their position for the other? Did they both take worse positions to be closer to each other? If both answers are no, how did they work it out?
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I agree with Olm: that statement by IntEcon80 is right up there with some of the most obnoxious statements ever made in this forum.

 

 

IntEcon80's comment didn't bother me (too much:p) Anyway, there have already been a string of much more obnoxious statements made in another recent thread.

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I don't see how one can misspeak so strangely, but okay.

 

I didn't realize that was the main part of your question. So you're asking about joint placements? That depends on the sort of jobs. Joint academic placements are obviously quite complicated. If you're both going into, say, government jobs, geography is less of an issue.

 

It seems like one has to manage to meet a prospective grad school mate first...

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It seems like one has to manage to meet a prospective grad school mate first...

 

But, if you go back to my original post, I mentioned a fellow student who was wondering the same thing. And that student is in a relationship with a grad school mate. So the answer to the question wasn't just for my benefit.

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After 4 years of undergrad its hard to believe that you have not found your love yet.

 

Why hard to believe? Do you see most of your classmates from undergrad institution marrying each other once they graduate?

 

This is more easily said than done. It's completely unreasonable naive to suggest that finding your love in undergrad institution and then going to graduate school is easy. Most of my classmates who don't even go to graduate school are still single years after graduations. And those who got married, did not necessarily marry someone who they met in their undergraduate programs. If you have graduate school plans, then that makes things even more complicated. Even if you find a partner, this partner should be able and willing to move with you wherever you want to move. This is very difficult. Don't you think that many girls and boys have career plans of their own, not to mention that he or she should be able to graduate at around the same time with you?

 

Example. I thought that I found my love when I was dating one of my classmates the last year of school and after graduation. I hoped that this could develop into a long-term relationship. After graduation she got her job in Silicon Valley and said flat out that our relationship can't continue because her plan to hold the best-of-a-kind job is not compatible with my graduate school plans. Does this mean that if I can't get into Stanford or Berkeley that I should simply not go to graduate school? No. After that I dated some other girl who still was an undergrad, but once again I could sense that being a junior she didn't feel like getting into a serious relationship because she was aware of my graduate school plans, and I am sure her life-style or career ambitions were not compatible with living in a small college town in Midwest.

 

In our first year class, only two students are married (out of nine).

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No one has really answered the main part of my question: how do two PhD students handle placement? At least one poster has talked about PhD students getting together. Did one have to sacrifice their position for the other? Did they both take worse positions to be closer to each other? If both answers are no, how did they work it out?

 

 

I think the answer is the one we don't want to hear.

 

Yes, if you want to stay with your significant other, one of your might have to make a sacrifice career-wise (even quitting graduate school before even being on the job market). I have already heard some stories of this happening. The job market (academic or not) does not abide by a rule that says that married couples will always be guaranteed mutually satisfactory/compatible jobs.

 

You might have seen this theorem that says that the sum of the maxima of two functions on some set is greater than or equal to the maximum of the sum of these two functions on the same set. I think that summarizes this situation pretty well. (sorry for a bad attempt at being funny).

 

One interesting example, is Emanuel Derman, who quit his hard-earned assistant professor position at CU-Boulder so that he could live with his family in NYC. His wife was an academic of some sort as well and worked in NYC area. If you read his book, his transition into computing, and then to quantitative trading turned out to be a very rewarding experience. I am sure he's probably not upset about the way thing worked out..

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In the case of the "two body problems" e.g. trying to find placement for both PhDs, what ends up happening is one career becomes the dominant career. For example, many universities have spousal hire policies, where in the terms of hiring, some sort of position is negotiated for the spouse in their respective department. It's usually not tenure track, and I think a portion of the salary is often paid by the university administration. The university has to want you pretty bad to take that cost on, and it's not a very good career move for the spouse. Alternatively you can try to work in a city that has multiple teaching options, yet again, it is unlikely that both partners will be able to find their ideal placement.

 

Basically, you really should avoid dating other academics if at all possible, unless you are okay with giving up your career. Do what I do- date a writer. I may be the breadwinner but he'll follow me around the world and watch the babies. :]

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Basically, you really should avoid dating other academics if at all possible, unless you are okay with giving up your career. Do what I do- date a writer. I may be the breadwinner but he'll follow me around the world and watch the babies. :]

 

I've been thinking lately, that it'd probably work out well if I was an Economic Consultant and found a wife that was an Econ Professor. Again though, I could run into problems about where to live (it's not like all cities have a consulting firm and a college/university).

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I have no idea what this thread is about. Meeting women on a college campus is the easiest thing on Earth to do. You'd have a harder time fishing with grenades. Unless you're starting grad school at age 30 and you're totally opposed to meeting 22 year old women, you should have no problem.

 

I can't wait to go back to school. I'm still only 23. Meeting women in bars after work in the real world really sucks. I'd rather be on a college campus where every cafe, fast food restaurant, and bar is filled with young attractive women. Just thinking about how shockingly awful and immature our undergrad male counterparts are at picking up women has my head spinning.

 

I don't expect to have much luck dating within the econ grad department. Although I'm sure I'll hit on grad students from other departments.

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Here is one of the most inspirational stories you can find about this issue.

What I'd like to see is an example of a couple both finding jobs when NEITHER is a "rising star" as your pair are described. If you're both stars, no problem. Tons of examples like this. If one is a star, then a school might accomodate the other (Examples: when Columbia courted Woodford, they hooked up his wife with a job at the NY Fed when she didn't get tenure at wherever she was previously. Stanford accomodated the Hoxby couple, when Caroline was the star.)

 

But if neither of you are stars, then what happens????

 

Of course, everyone on this board is going to be a star, so I guess we don't need to consider this. ;)

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